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@ Lucifer Rising
Basically, your whole diatribe against me is mainly based on strawmanning, implicit ad hominems, some more logical fallacies that I don’t care to remember right now and the arrogance of someone in a comfortable position (as the smart guy or the rich guy or the fan with the best opinions… whatever), admittedly with a few positive exceptions. One can only guess why that would be interesting for you. Sadly, putting forth such stuff is easy, whilst rebutting it takes time.
In short: It’s not about my sore toes, my pain and my presumed opinion that PM owe me something. It is about the fan base as a whole, using myself as just one tiny example.
Admittedly, I was careless in describing the dagger part, not making perfectly clear there is a difference between emotions and opinions. It is not my opinion that PM owe me something. But based on my dagger feeling I did indeed decide that I’m not going to send more money to the band than the amounts needed to quench my music thirst. There’s no demand for you or the band to respect that “stubborn” choice (hehehe), which btw is not revenge but a stopping of rewarding above what can be expected.
In my opinion, your “stubborn/tricky” segment fails to score. Motorpsycho have made music I like a lot. They are by no means the next Bach or Zappa, and their stubbornness is not the product I buy. It’s about compositions. The vague implied notion that stubbornness outside of the composition is an ingredient of the composition is flawed, and thoroughly debunked by guys like Bach, Schumann, Komeda (swedish band) and certainly zillions of other composers.
MP’s being founded in or dependant on the psychology of the loyal fan base is not the product I buy (though I tried to help them maintain the stream). I am aware some others buy those products. Some of these extract self-esteem from the notion they are being great fans. Some of those again develop into religious followers (dangerous). Note: I have not placed you anywhere on that line – I know zilch about you. It’s just an observation on fandom.
“alot of fun and nice products would not have been made had someone of your opinions run the show”
If someone of my opinions had run the show, the major difference would have been that the demands on availability would have been heightened, much like Stereolab is run. The archetypal loyal Stereolab fan will buy each and every vinyl, ep, single and special release, whilst more regular music lovers can relax knowing that all the stuff eventually will be gathered on regular long play CDs. It’s a perfect setup that caters for all types of fans, and one that has gained Stereolab lots of respect.
That being said, I do not ask for MP to be run my way. But them running the show their way can eventually make some fans less charmed with their way of thinking, and does not charm me. I act as freely as MP, and downloaded when I got a chance, rather than doing all kinds of work to rip my vinyl.
“The needs of the lowest common denominator isn’t what you should always try to cater to”
Wholeheartedly agreed when taken on its own. Stronger: I am rather strongly opposed to L.C.D. thinking by large. But anti-L.C.D. thinking does not preclude being rounded off, understanding, accepting and wishing to better the common good.
As an example (dangerous, I know), I wrote electronic classical music – the pling plong stuff. That does NOT mean I wish for people to not understand that music, and I wrote computer graphics programs so as to aid the listening experience for those who feel it helps.
“amusing how you say you’re against sharing, though you find it acceptable in just this instance”
In my opinion, sharing is about spreading free copies. I am STRONGLY opposed to that, and even deny my friends to burn me CD-Rs, no matter how much you manipulate what I say into something else. What has happened on this forum however is about frustrated fans who already have bought the vinyl. All of this would not have been necessary. The way you again are strawmanning is worrying.
I do however buy the argument that other people will read this, and some will decide to obtain a free copy. I have tried to think of structures to avoid that, without being able to come up with anything. Note however that the “damage” is not by my hand. The only new thing I put forward was the thing with the capital letters – hardly something that has any impact on the downloading community.
“Do you have any principles or are they all thrown over board “just this one time”? Thi-hi.”
It seems that in your mind this whole situation can only be perceived and understood in one way – either that or you’re crisis-maximizing by abusing every single perceived unevenness to the max. I call that intellectual poverty. Do I have any principles? Do you have onions and pickles with your fried babies?
“thanks for calling me smart, you make it so easy!”
Yes, I saw from the start that you are smart, and never implied differently. One of the ways you use your smartness is strawmanning incessently, in a way so it looks as if that is not what it is. You are smart, alright. You just lack the common decency to respect people whom you perceive to be less smart than you (volumes have been written about that) or who have opinions that you perceive to be flawed, and you seem to have very little regard for people who are not in your lucky pecuniar or intellectual situation.
@ Lucifer Rising
“Just because one of you justifies sharing the week old record on MPs own forum by being a “fanatical fan buying a dozen of their records” dosent mean everyone else do, get it?”
I get it alright. I get that you are exactly as condescending as some others here.
I never justified using the forum for sharing. I hate sharing. As a composer myself, I know exactly where my loyalty lies. But yes, seeing on the forum there actually was a means of getting the music in a form I can use, I used that possibility _after_ having paid NOK 378 for my two copies.
Your quoting me as someone who has bought a dozen or so CDs has the smell of sarcasm. Please be as sarcastic as you wish, but the fact remains I have bought everything on CD, most on vinyl in addition, and that additional dozen CDs only to spread the word in other areas of the planet.
“This forum is not a password protected secret blog.”
I agree, and it pains me to know that it can be abused for sharing free copies. But though I would never publish a downloading address, all of this came about when loving fans got frustrated with the actions of the band. It simply wouldn’t have happened under normal circumstances. MP have one of the more loyal fan bases. Every normally equipped person knows the boys in the band need money for doing what they do.
“Funny if you buy so many of their records you are not able to invest in a usb vinylplayer, they cost next to nothing I’ve heard.”
You know NOTHING about other peoples’ situation. Another one of these uncaring, condescending utterings. I know a fan who must save to even buy the record. (Apart from that, the sound from that kind of cheap equipment is not even worthy of discussion.)
“I don’t think there is any smugness in not wanting people to turn this forum into a free MP mp3 market, just common decency.”
Seen isolated, indeed there’s no smugness in that. Then again, fans who do not share your view are not automatically interested in that either. It is more reasonable to expect them to NOT wish for it. There is no good argument for implying that you are decent whilst people who disagree with you are not.
How about common decency in the form of the band rewarding their loving audience with a record they can hear without going through all kinds of different steps depending on their life situation? Does that constitute an answer to your way of thinking about decency?
“Should MP blame themselves, is that your belief?”
Eh, no. Do you eat babies?
“Or whatever, I can’t be bothered to have this discussion.”
You avoid a discussion exactly how? By writing a long, condescending comment?
“The record will find it’s way to the net anyway, which is okay I guess, just annoying that this forum is used to distribute.”
Me, I do NOT find it okay that the record probably wil find its way to the Internet. Again, this forum was used by caring fans who wanted to hear the new music.
“Strange how all the reviews I have read seem to catch the vinyl only thing, while so many fans seem to have missed the whole idea.”
Yes, isn’t it strange and wonderous how the world is divided into two groups: the smart ones that agree with you and the stupid ones that miss out on everything? Wow, there must be a creator. This can’t have come about by itself.
Catching on or not catching on has little to do with it. We have spent money and we wish to hear the music. Some of us do not wish to, and others can’t, invest in time and equipment. I fail to see how this makes us undecent people who don’t get it.
Kaosspaolo, you either have done something wrong or you’re behind a system that precludes you from searching or something. Maybe this has to do with your country’s access, Idunno.
I don’t know the SoulSeek program, but have you tried playing with the title, like Child and child, Future and future? In some programs that (stupidly) might be the problem.
I downloaded SoulSeek from MrKreukel’s slsk.net link (not the first-mentioned site), and just _seconds_ later (impressed!), I could download the album from two different users, at the very same time you complained you couldn’t find it. My download finished at 0:15 CET (UTC+1) and it is playing right now.
Whilst loyalty to the band is a beautiful thing, and I have been just as loyal as the next guy, some of the more condescending comments here reek of arrogance and possibly even the desire to enjoy stuff that others can’t enjoy. To be quite frank, it much reminds me of the (happily few) deLillos fans that went like: “I don’t want the band to release that album. I want to own it knowing others don’t!”
Yup!
Far be it from me to try and argue that the band can not act freely. But I hope the band think likewise. I hope it’s far from them to argue that I must stay a loyal fan even though the band now has stuck the dagger in my back after almost 20 years of me fanatically following them, and they even being amused by the MP3 discussion.
Sadly, I pre-ordered two copies not even contemplating it might be vinyl. But I will immediately postpone any typical fan behaviour. I am as free as the band, right?
For example, up to now I’ve bought a dozen or more CDs and sent them to Europe, the US and Japan, just to spread the MP word. Postponed!
In addition to all the CDs, I’ve bought vinyl versions just to support the band. Postponed!
Etcetera, etcetera.
I don’t have a record player, but it wouldn’t have helped me, as I’m away from home for months, working in “confined spaces” where no record player can be used, making me dependant of MP3.
The band have simply decided I was not going to enjoy CotF without doing unspeakable things.
Well, guys in the band, you are not going to enjoy the money from my typical fan behaviour.
Lastly, to KLCK and others: please answer the following question for yourself. When the band will celebrate the 25 year anniversary with a release only on the now classic and all but defunkt “Stereo 8” eight track tape, what will your response be?
Now don’t answer to the forum. Please answer only to yourself. That way we can vainly hope for some honesty.
