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I have to disagree a bit there. Skill- and soulful playing don't negate each other. And Tomas can't handle ASFE? Quite a bold statement. 8O And wouldn't the band be the first to know and "judge"?
I know absolutely what marc means. It’s hard to put into words, but there’s this special magic in the old live performances, ,woven by the interplay of the three norsemen, especially in the groove hold together by Bent and Gebhardt. That’s where songs like The Wheel come from
Interesting discussion. It is true that some drummers can't do both (take Neil Peart for example – a big favourite among rock drummers but not really a groovemeister), but as supernaut says, they don't negate each other. As for Tomas – not sure, maybe you have a point Marc. Will go away and listen to ASFE right this damn moment!
Excuse the blasphemy! Yet, the point of a forum is to be able to express one's individual perception/viewpoint…however wrong it might be, right?
I definitely consider Tomas' play to be skillful AND soulful when being off the leash. But I think it is a real challenge, especially for extraordinarily skilled drummers, to play a simple beat and keep it exciting without artistic shenanigans, but through feeling and intuition. You know, the krauty, Jaki Liebezeit- or, if you will, Geb-like approach to drumming. That said, I really love technical drumming, but a simple groove can serve as a counterpoint to make both aspects even more exciting and effective.
As for the A.S.F.E. example: Of course tomas handles the song! Please, dude knows how to play! All I am saying is that to me it sounds/feels like it takes him some effort to keep it straight instead of embracing the simplicity of the rhythm and just go for it. It's like a race horse at a pony show.
Lend your ears to Forræderi – Tomas on the drums – for a few minutes and say again that he doesn't know how to play straight forward.
https://open.spotify.com/album/4BGrWs3YzuQpFI1KemqpTk?si=ElxRb_1fQ4-e6oINuTSBTQ
@punji
Neil Peart, what about early records and the Feedback cover album?
I don't think it's a challenge at all for skilled musicians to play straight'n'simple. Why would it be? But I'm a bit sensitive about this subject since it's been a dogma mantra credo back in my indierock days. Indie police says "It's either this or that", the unwritten rule for some weird reason and it annoyed me already back then. I wonder if in a blind test listening to say four Heartattack Mac live recordings from 1996, 2006, 2010 and 2018 we all could name the drummer? Ok, maybe Kenneth is easy to spot :lol:
Also Bent and Snah have become better players over 20 years naturally, so do they have a hard time nowadays to play STG, Feel, PPP or whatever? I think it's all very hypothetical and beyond reality. Which is my opinion to disagree with
Peart can play that stuff ok (as you say, it's not one or the other), I just don't see it as his forte. There are a lot of drummers who can't do what he can (or as well as he can), but can do amazing groove till the cows come home. It's just a matter of some drummers being better at one thing than another – like some guitarists are great shredders but not as good as others at playing great rhythm. No criticism from my side of Peart, Geb or Tomas – I think all three are great, but they each have their own style and areas of expertise, which in some areas overlap and others don't. Compare Peart with Bruford – Peart could never play the way Bruford does on, say, Starless and Bruford could never play the way Peart does on, say, Tom Sawyer. And even if they could, why would they want to?
EDIT: So I just listened to both For What It's Worth and Mr Soul from the Feedback album. The first, apart from Alex's lead contributions, leaves me pretty cold. It certainly has none of the soul of the original (and that includes Peart's drumming), though it's a competent enough cover. The second was a little more engaging but again the drumming feels much like a run-through. Doesn't stop Peart being one of my all-time favourite drummers by some distance. The funny thing is, his groove does come through during, for example, the mid-section of Jacob's Ladder, where the patterns are more complex but he uses them to drive the song forward like very few else do. Subdivisions might be another example – he's pushing the groove, but not with simple beats, even though it's a straighforward song. He's playing all around the beat but still keeping it on point, and that's part of where his brilliance lies for me. Than again I might be dreaming
Lux Aeterna! Wow, can’t wait, sounds like a MP classic already, just by the name. But. Can anyone *please* upload it on YouTube? Just a humble wish from someone without Dime/Motortrade capability. Thanx!
I've always thought that the "stiff"/"ungroovy"/"non-dynamic" drumming in "ASFE" was totally intentional and on purpose – probably the songwriter's or the producer's idea – as an effect. How many crashes do you even count in the song? It's just pumping bassdrum/ride and snare just about all the way through. Definitely "a thing", I'd say. I think Geb wouldn't manage to get THAT straight/stiff/machine-like feel to it, and I believe Kenneth wouldn't want to :lol:
Guessing? Me?! A lot!
Yes ASFE is a robotic machine groove. There's not much to swing about. I'm curious why they dropped this one so early from the setlist last year and didn't show up this time around either.
Punj
I'm totally with you about the guitar shredders without any sense of rhythm. And "And even if they could, why would they want to?" sums it up nicely. Individualism is the key.
@supernaut: IMHO they were not able to create a satisfactory live version of ASFE. Even though it's not my favorite track on The Tower, they were able to make a good studio version, especially the ending with all the voices chanting the chorus hypnotically and Snah soloing furiously over it. Live on the other hand, it became very feeble, monotonous and pointless without the studio enhancements (at least from the recordings I've heard) So I honestly don't miss it in a live setting; they're playing plenty of other goodies anyway!
That's my 2 cents, at least :lol:
@supernaut – at least we agreed on some things
And thanks for prompting me to go back and listen to some old (and not so old) Rush again. It's been a while. And sometimes you discover things aren't what you thought they were. @otherdemon and supernaut – They opened with ASFE in London – my first ever MP gig, and I exploded. I thought it was a perfect opener, full of mad energy that just made me want to relive my punk youth and start pogoing! Not so easy at 55.
I couldn't so easily imagine it in the middle of a set though.
@Punj: I've only heard recordings of ASFE; they always skipped it at the gigs I attended.
So it might be a case of it sounding more convincing IRL.
@otherdemon РYeah, maybe. Or maybe I was just high on being at my first MP gig and other stuff. It's all so subjective. At Roadburn this year one of my friend's said he found the improvisatory noodling at the beginning of Un Chien was dreadful, just screechy and pointless. He was up in the balcony. I was on the floor, dead centre, about ten rows back and to me it was glorious. He said there were no bass tones or rhythm to ground it. I was shocked. I asked, did you not hear Bent's three repeated bass notes [like in the Roadworks K̦ln recording] giving the whole thing form, direction and grounding? No, he replied. Oh well. You never really know.
Oh, what did I spark!
@ThorEgil Thank you for the link! Consider me proven wrong… a little!
That is definitely straight forward playing. Like I said, I don't question Tomas' capability to play such stuff, yet hardcore/metal drumming is a bit of a different story though I think. Maybe "groove" is what puts the finger on it more precisely. @supernaut Sorry for opening old wounds! But "Indie police"….ouch, that hurt :lol:
Of course, you're perfectly right that they became better players and I definitely don't want them to return to the past. I perfectly understand that they have to keep it exciting and challenging for themselves.
@grindove Yes, as you point out that "static" drumming certainly was on porpuse. For me, it doesn't fully carry the song though. That is exactly my point. I think that, while sticking to the straight beat, some minimal dynamics/variations could have breathed more life into the recording.
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