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suntripper:
Quote:Would anyone else like to try and answer my question – particularly those who have made this connection? Why is a concern with 'vaccines' and 'vaccine' passports associated, by some, with what they would see as a Trump/alt-right/Brexit mindset?Gladly. In short: Brexit and Trump was a rebellion from the working class against an elite who lost contact, no, who deliberately distanced themselves from ordinary people. Yes, there are different sorts of elites. When we talk of the topic you mention, it's (amongst others) the class of the "Anywheres", as described in David Goodhart's book «The Road To Somewhere»: Highly educated, polyglot, cosmopolitans, urban, internationalists, mostly from an academical background. They never worked in private economy. They never added something to the GDP, to the wealth, to the functioning of the society – the society that enables them to live their lifestyle.*
This class only functions with and from a powerful, non-federalistic state, an anti-democratic confederation like the EU, and the so called rules based international order, represented for example by the WHO, WTO, UN and central banks who aggressively forced globalization beyond the pain barrier. Brexit and Trump was the challenge, directed against these bad habits and institutions. It was also against the toxic tendencies to withdraw step-by-step the possibility of democratic self-determination from the people, the communities, the countries.
Now, in short: If you are critical against government's advice, regarding the topics you mentioned, you get defamed by being so stupid that you must have been misleaded by these bad populists. You also get insulted by the majority of the Media who totally quitted being critically distanced to the ones in power.
*Do you live in Germany? I recommend Sahra Wagenknecht's «Die Selbstgerechten» for an insight view of this milieu. Or if you want to get deeper into the thinking of these individuals, get Thierry Baudet's «Oikophobie – Der Hass auf das Eigene und seine zerstörerischen Folgen» (also available in other languages) to understand why leftists hate so much their own culture, their countries, their provenance and heritage.
Yes, Norman, the working classes are not so stupid. They knew they were getting shafted by the 'Anywheres'. The tragedy is that, when they were looking for leaders, all they had to cling to was Johnson's mob and Trump. Leaving the EU didn't have to look like this if there were a government with the people's best interests at heart. Unfortunately, the UK now has the most slippery, spineless, incompetent and corrupt enablers of racketeering in its history as an excuse for a government – so why trust them on 'testing', 'vaccines' and 'vaccine' passports?
Safeguards that the EU provided – at least for the time being – have been lost, and that concerns me. That, however, does not blind me to the reality of the EU project. I love Europe and I want to be European, but I am under no illusion concerning the real history and the long-term aims of the EU. If you think the EU is an unalloyed force for good… well, perhaps dig a little deeper?
For me, the vote was like a choice between the devil and the deep, blue sea.
Now, I know a doctor of philosophy and two others studying for doctorates – they're neither working class nor stupid and all three voted Brexit. I disagree with them on a number of things, but I recognise that they are intelligent and well-informed and I don't automatically make them wrong on everything (or call them malevolent, aggressive, egoist trolls or whatever).
Most things are not black and white. Why all the anger and hatred?
All I've got so far, I think, is Johnny's assertion of paranoia in common, so, again, I ask those who connect concerns with 'vaccines' and 'vaccine' passports with what they regard as a Trump/alt-right/Brexit mindset, please, to explain for me why you have repeatedly made that association.
PLS! Put this all somwhere else. And I think maybe it´s time for the admins to warn some people here about the language and hatespeech against others. I read some things here, I would kick people out for. just saying.
Totally agree with Kid A. My god, it’t ok to disagree but is it so difficult to stay nice and polite?
Please let's not be warning people or kicking people out, even if it's got a bit spicy from time to time. Thanks.
Still hoping for an answer…
Brexit – For those interested in a very few facts (so Johnny, you can skip and head over to your favored antidemocrats and EU-centralism supporters like Böhmermann, ARD/ZDF, Süddeutsche, taz, Spiegel et al.):
1) The voters of Great Britain, one of the oldest functioning democracies in the world, decided get back their sovereignty, to govern themselves again. Full stop.
2) Big multinational companies were all explicitly against Brexit. The centralized rule-making and protectionism of the EU are in their most interest. This proved to be a burden for small- and medium business and, consequently, also for the working class people.
3) Shortly before the referendum on March 2016, HM Treasury (Britains bursary) predicted an immediate, deep economic shock in case of a "Yes" vote. A significant decrease of the GDP, a plus of 500'000 unemployed, lowered actual earnings. Horrible! CBI (the Confederation of British Industry, a player of «Project Fear») even warned about the loss of 1'000'000 jobs, leaving the EU would cost the average household GBP 3'700.- a year. But actually, the British economy grew 2016 and 2017 stronger than the Euro-zone. Unemployment decreased by 280'000, and wages raised.
It's the class of the decent, normal working people who benefits most from Brexit, while the agents of big business, big banks, in a creepy conjunction with left-wing intellectuals and neo-marxists – both mostly urban, snobbish and upper class – plus the patronizing Media are still moaning and freaking out.
It's your decision on who's side you are.
suntripper:
Quote:Safeguards that the EU provided – at least for the time being – have been lost, and that concerns me.Mind about the desire of living a totally safe live: If you trade your liberty for safety, you will finally lose both.
A state has the duty both to protect their citizens, and to respect their freedom as individuals. It's a constant balancing out between those two poles. But sensible decisions can only been made by governments that are democratically legit by the people that are affected by their decisions. Although I absolutely don't share your view of UK's current government (which is a rather cheap narrative of the leftwing Media), there's surely a problem in the UK when the city of London stands like an satellite within one country. But that situation was even much more worse when the advices came from the unelected bureaucrats in Bruxelles.
Norman, again, is it so difficult to be nice and polite? Is this how you always interact with people or just on the internet?
@suntripper: there´s a different between spicy and act like an asshole.
(I don´t say some people ARE, but they act like)
And it´s not you I have in mind by the way. Though I definitely are not a friend of your opinions or the way you keep pushing this thread here for months now.
Krist and Kid, you tend to be blind on one eye. My attack against Johnny is a reaction for his absolutely unacceptable dismissive manner against, in this case, Brexiteers.
– People like Johnny feel enlighted, as supreme individuals;
«sadly only a small number of people understood» (it's certain that he is one of these…)
– evidentially talk absurd bullshit, parroting the laughable, dishonest activism of the biased, ideological Media;
«an effort by a rich minority to free themselves from EU regulations – a class struggle against the poor that deluded the nostalgic, the old, the jobless and the economically depraved»
– just to raise to the top of a stuck-up snob by educate all, that these idiots were so dumb;
«to vote against their interest»
– Then with his final, most primitive insults;
«led by a populist and sometimes fascist, xenophobic political mob – UKIP scum and worse.»
he not just shows that he understood nothing, but also smashes people with other opinions in their face with the most ugly defamation. A truly disgusting behaviour.
This kind of patronizing comes by as a matter of course. A raising number of people have enough of that.
(translated by google translate): German version underneath:
Until a few years ago, an artist needed a lot of naked human bodies, gallons of animal blood or piss on pictures of sons of God and prophets in order to be able to properly provoke. Nowadays it is apparently enough to express concerns when it comes to whether healthy people should be injected with an unknown, novel vaccine that may affect the natural immune system in order to be able to experience their favorite band live in the future.
Of course, a more polite conversation would be good for everyone involved. However, a certain degree of provocation has certainly also led to some, not insignificant, and in the best case also constructive to light, or some self-loving vaccination heroes and vaccination skeptics were given the opportunity to profile themselves with their own statements or even to be disqualified. It is therefore not always necessary to point this out with further taunts or insults, even if the temptation is sometimes enormous.
Despite several months now, I am personally glad that the discussion is continuing, that one or the other might learn something and I still hope for equality for ALL psychonauts when it comes to regaining the freedom and the right to sweaty concerts. The freedom for fans of both camps and also for all individuals who are somewhere in between, because there are no two exactly the same opinions, even if some like-minded people like to show solidarity with one another, especially when it comes to picking on someone who is not so thinks how they'd like it to be.
Should anyone want to be vaccinated, as long as they are adults and not put any pressure on others, especially uninformed older people, let alone children, by glorifying their personal opinions and possibly also serving as role models.
Hence my request to find a way to communicate again and stop trying to kill, insult, defame, denounce or censor anyone just because he or she disagrees with you. And yes, the writer of these lines is also touching his own nose.
German Version:
Bis vor ein paar Jahren brauchte ein Künstler noch jede Menge nackter menschlicher Körper, literweise Tierblut oder Pisse auf Bildern von Gottessöhnen und Propheten, um anständig provozieren zu können. Heutzutage reicht es scheinbar aus, Bedenken zu äußern, wenn es darum geht, ob sich gesunde Menschen mit einem unbekannten neuartigen, möglicherweise das natürliche Immunsystem beeinflussenden Impfstoff spritzen lassen sollen, um auch in Zukunft die Lieblingsband live erleben zu dürfen.
Selbstverständlich würde eine etwas höflichere Konversation allen Beteiligten guttun. Allerdings hat ein gewisser Grad von Provokation sicherlich auch dazu geführt, einiges, nicht Unwesentliches, und im besten Falle auch Konstruktives ans Licht zu bringen, beziehungsweise bekamen einige selbstverliebte Impfhelden, sowie Impfskeptiker die Gelegenheit, sich selbst mit ihren eigenen Aussagen zu profilieren oder eben auch zu disqualifizieren. Es ist daher nicht immer nötig, mit weiteren Sticheleien oder Beschimpfungen darauf hinzuweisen, auch wenn die Verlockung manchmal enorm groß ist.
Trotz inzwischen mehreren Monaten bin ich persönlich froh, dass die Diskussion weitergeführt wird, der ein oder andere vielleicht noch etwas dazu lernt und hoffe noch immer auf Gleichberechtigung für ALLE Psychonauten, wenn es darum geht, die Freiheit und das Recht auf schweißtreibende Konzerte zurückzuerlangen. Die Freiheit für Fans beider Lager und auch allen Individuen, die irgendwo dazwischenliegen, denn es gibt keine zwei genau gleichen Meinungen, auch wenn sich manche Gleichgesinnte gerne untereinander solidarisch zeigen, vor allem, wenn es darum geht, gemeinsam auf jemandem herumzuhacken, der nicht so denkt, wie sie es gerne hätten.
Soll sich impfen lassen, wer möchte, so lange sie erwachsen sind und keinen Druck auf andere, insbesondere unaufgeklärte ältere Menschen, geschweige denn Kinder ausüben, indem sie ihre persönliche Meinung glorifizieren und möglicherweise auch als Vorbild dienen.
Daher meine Bitte, findet wieder einen Weg zu kommunizieren und hört auf jeden fertig machen zu wollen, beleidigen, diffamieren, anzuprangern oder zensieren, nur weil er oder sie nicht der euren Meinung ist. Und ja, der Schreiber dieser Zeilen fasst sich gerade auch an die eigene Nase.
Quote:…the agents of big business, big banks, in a creepy conjunction with left-wing intellectuals and neo-marxists…Absolutely! It is creepy! Not all left-wing intellectuals, mind you.
But this is the most frightening trend in the world today, unseen by many on the left, it would appear, who are, I think, being brilliantly played such that they give their support to exactly those forces they ought to be opposing. (How strange that this is almost perfectly the opposite of what Johnny alleges, although I still have some sympathy with his view because I consider that Brexit was, effectively, hi-jacked; and I stand by my view of this appalling UK government – you don't need a left-wing narrative to see it for what it is.)
This alliance you highlight is also, I believe, most pertinent to the whole 'vaccine' and 'vaccine' passport thing.
@suntripper, yes. It all started in the 90's, when after the fall of the iron curtain and the raise of the internet, globalization took off.
Anthony Giddens, a British sociologist, published the blue prints of the idea bringing together the political left (who idealized a multi-cultural, non-nation, centrally governed world) with the agents of big business who also forced globalization to 1) produce goods where it's cheapest, and 2) to have unlimited access of labour due to open borders.
Tony Blair, Gerhard Schröder, Bill Clinton. These nominal* left-wing politicians began to work hand in glove with multinational companies. It peaked in December 2001, when China became a member of the WTO. It became cracked in 2016 with Brexit and Trump. A few interesting quotes:
«My dream is a herispheric common market with open trade and open borders.» (Hillary Clinton)
«We’ll take the peoples of Europe towards a political union, using economic arguments.» (Jean Monnet)
«These populist, nationalists, stupid nationalists, they are in love with their own countries!» (Jean-Claude Juncker)
«The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.» (Michail Gorbatschow)
*Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten! – once again.
I promised to end this discussion here. Being personally attacked and insulted by one member here I have long wrestled with myself if it is clever to respond. It probably is not – but I feel challenged to make one last statement.
I do not think it is necessary to stop all political issues and debates in this forum. People have justified concerns over matters that define our lives in general and as psychonauts in special. We many have very different opinions – but not discussing them is not a solution. But when the point has arrived that some members use this forum to spit out their hateful aggression instead of arguing the time has come to stop.
Obviously I have provoked a lot of dissent with my sometimes very pointed posts. This is o.k. for me. I am not the "glass chin" Norman_Gold has called me. I have called a party movement scum because that's exactly what people are who attack others – not just verbally – because of their culture, colour of skin, language, national background and so on. If Norman_Gold feels personally attacked by this – so be it. You speak for yourself. But stop spreading your poison here, Norman! No more hate – there's enough of that in today's world. This is not the place for your bile and your hateful propaganda.
Just stop it! No more…
Johnny_Heartfield:
Quote:I have called a party movement scum because that's exactly what people are who attack others – not just verbally – because of their culture, colour of skin, language, national background and so on.Perfect. Now you have to ultimately deliver such citations and events from UKIP's representatives during the Brexit campaign to document your accusations.
It's not only your condescension against Brexiteers. Remember a similar discussion about three years ago* where I stayed stoically polite and calm from the beginning to the end, although one guy kept on insulting me over and over again. That guy was – you, Johnny. So you prove what a hypocrite you are. Before you advise others to «stop spreading your poison», you have to start by the one that is nearest to yourself.
*(Krist and Kid: Where were you back then? When I remember right, you were part of that discussion.)
Why suddenly so punchy, you may ask? Well, meanwhile I've learned from a great guy that against individuals that are both stupid and arrogant / dogmatic / holier-than-thou, there is only one possible approach to apply:
«The just argument against a stupid forehead is a clenched fist.» (Friedrich Nietzsche)
Don’t know what discussion you’re talking about, so I don’t know where I was. Makes no sense really to drag out some vague reference to some discussion that took place 3 years ago, where Someone maybe took part or not.
But I DO know, that I can’t remember any personal insults in this forum in the many many years I’m around here, as I’ve read from you. And I find it unacceptable, against anyone, regardless if I’m with his or her opinion or not.
I know, that Johnny can be harsh but your replies were not ok.
And if you think it’s ok to communicate like this, keep this stupid thread and your clenched fists for yourself and I’ll move on.
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