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I'm not so sure that greediness and selfishness are the main sources of the issues at hand. Every one has the potential for kindness and every one does kind and non selfish things. I mean everyone. Even the worst crook or fascist or banker loves his/her dog, kids, spouse, mommy and daddy. The problems are rather indifference and/or ignorance on purpose towards the bigger picture, the larger scale. "What I am to do? Why is that my problem? They (whoever that is) all screw us (whoever that is). Politicians do what they want anyway." and so forth.
Considering we live in a time in which we have access to more information than ever, I'm most worried about the rising attitude towards it. Information becomes more and more doubted or second guessed by default. Now that's no bad thing, we have to be sceptical. But if whole groups condemn any info they don't like as lies coming from one big corporate body with one big agenda, then that's nothing but an excuse to put any individual responsibility aside. It's the easy way out by – as a bonus – presenting oneself as a well informed, independently thinking and critical individual. And this makes me sick.
Thanks Punj! It's such great fun for me that I could do this all day
You've had bad experience with discussions like these? Be sure that it often alienates me too how quickly dialog partners in these exchanges start to totally freak out. It fascinates me so much that it guided me to a deeper thinking about this topic.It can also be observed in political TV-talks, where – my estimation – it's in 75% of the cases the left who interrupts and shuts down the right. It seems as they would suffer too much. Sometimes it only needs a displeasing dry fact to cause a harsh pain they obviously can't withstand.
You get the feedback that you're "acting like I think I'm better and more intelligent"? That's what it's about here! Getting knowledge from "academic literature that I read day in and day out and avoiding reference to the press and TV news" may be a fine approach. But one that doesn't qualify in an autistic matter of course to always be right.
"intelligent arguments drawing on the academic literature" – to glorify this method, to consequently rely on highest educated intellectual elites has leaded mankind, besides good developments, also in deepest catastrophies more than once. You seem to consider economic liberalism as basically wrong? But these concepts have been developed and are represented by high validated experts too!
When your view gets rejected, have you ever thought that this could be due to your behaviour? It's also in your repeated use of the terms "whining" and "get over" against me. Do you really need that? By trying just to insult the opposite, like it's common for leftists (as I probably wrote once before in this thread about the similiraties of Rush and Motorpsycho), you put yourself down, your views won't be taken seriously anymore. Come on, you're better than that!
It gets dead dangerous when there's common sense within a broad community that divergent views are generally bad, stupid, originated due to "wrong" interests, disinformation or seduction. Although – thankfully – in democratic nations the opposite still has the right to express their view, at least as a corrective. We can get rid of represantatives who in our opinion have done wrong or failed, to vote for alternatives instead. History shows that in the long term, the outcome of a democratic political system in a liberal society, paired with an independent consitutional state and a free capitalistic economic order proved to be the most peaceful, stable, healthy, prosperous – simply most proper way for the majority of the people.
I hope that you all join me in my conviction that we should not dismiss, insult, bully, shut down each other, neither in a manner of intellectual nor morally feel of superiority. I love to exchange controversial views, concepts, preferences, ideas and beliefs in a sporty and competitive but respectful manner. Bearing in mind that for the majority of the issues, there might be no final right or wrong. Often, it only leads to an assumption as what might be the least worst solution.
@Valderrama, I think about these topics often too. Maybe I'm able to lay down a few thoughts about it next.
Quote:But if whole groups condemn any info they don't like as lies coming from one big corporate body with one big agenda, then that's nothing but an excuse to put any individual responsibility aside.Quite right, supernaut. But only rarely I have witnessed the described behaviour in such an absolutistic way. So I would be curious to hear what "whole groups" that you mean.
In 2016, 84% of German journalists considered themselves to be standing on the left. One could argue that they are guided by high ethical standards, certainly noble enough to be reluctant – to "write what is" (Rudolf Augstein). But their ideological siding and moral paternalism comes by so bearish that I often think to myself – wtf? Do they consider us as that stupid? Nowadays it's much easier to get closer to the source of a fact. And when you realize that you get cheated repeatedly, you lose trust. Plus, I don't want to get told what I must think. I want to have unweighted raw coverage – yes, lighted out from different perspectives – upon which I can finally make up my own mind.
Due to their wide conformity in coverage, emphasis and evaluation, their views slightly became the new normality, the new center, where alternatives often beeing considered as at least "unhelpful". I have always been alienated about the bitter fights within the left about minor discrepancies they have. There seems to be no room for dissent. Guess I would get fired from these editorial offices right after my very first aricle
Although they unfortunately keep losing credibility, rest assured that I don't want the traditional media to disappear. But they urgently need to reform by recruiting their staff from a much broader spectrum, and having the guts to allow and tolerate dissent within their community.
Sorry to butt in, but is this forum really the place for this discussion? This is all just copy paste from Facebook threads, rehashed, nothing new (sorry), and I’m sure all of us are “blessed†to have our fb feeds bombed w these sort of “big insights†about the “regressive naive†left etc and must be fed up already. No need for lectures on stuff we all know? And no, this is not an attempt to shut down a discussion (or maybe it is ðŸ˜) and no, this is not an attempt to showcase my moral and intellectual superiority lol (or, maybe it is?😆). Jokes aside, I’m sure it feels current and pregnant, but this is a place to deal w Motorpsycho. Politics aside. Or at least *try* to link it to something MP-related, and not just “personal insights†we’ve all heard a thousand times before. Yes we are polarized, yes there exists fake news, yes everyone should be heard, yes the media is and has always been biased. Independent “free†mediasources w agendas w a laissez faire attitude to “truth†and “facts†are also problematic. Zzz. We all know this, I’m sure most psychonauts also follow the news, even if we’re all convinced that ✨space✨ really is the place. The Tower lyrics that Punj quoted might be a starting point if you want to have a topical MP discussion or dissection. (Arrogant? Moi?) Might be interesting, though I’m not so sure. Sorry again, I enjoy the commitment, and I’m only speaking for myself, but please, not here, not in heaven.✌ï¸
EDIT: If this is a Rush related discussion and breakdown of their lyrics I guess it’s all fine, and I’ll make sure not look up a Rush fanpage, if these exists. They must do. No, not a Rush fan, so I might not understand or appreciate this discussion like I’m sure I would if I was a committed Rushian.
@ Bartok
Thanks. You're right – we don't need to bring this stuff in here. It's everywhere else and it'd be nice to have one haven. I apologise to all concerned for my contribution to the divisiveness of the conversation, and to Norman personally for allowing my personal convictions and observations to get the better of my usually more positive nature. It's ugly and to be honest I don't really like myself when I get like that.
Sail on Psychonauts
@ Bartok; "and I'm only speaking for myself…",
well you're speaking for me as well the way you put it. It was surprising to witness an MP-forum thread transform into this kind of gentlemen's intellectual's society meeting, and as usual, while the port and cheese are consumed at the end of the evening,staring into the dying embers of the fireplace, the soaring intellect lands in it's nest of doubt and regret. The more we know, the more (or less!) we may see the great VOID behind it all. Which is the true way to go, and in a relieved and joyful state. Like you quote the late great SunRA: space IS the place! (for psychonauts ). And "into the void we must travel" is a MP motto, and I've always interpreted that not only as a way to perform music for them, but also as a way of experiencing their music for us, the audience!
I have read this thread with great interest. I wonder if there are any other Americans involved in the discussion. It sounds like probably not, but I wonder. I read this forum to escape from the constant drumbeat of politics in the USA, and here it pops up where I least expect it! It's fascinating, though, because the discussion is so different from what I hear day in and day out.
I first saw Rush in March 1977 opening for Kansas in New Jersey. I saw them several more times over the next couple of years. Great band, though I stopped following them shortly after Hemispheres. Too proggy for me. By then, my main musical influences were already established with Hawkwind, Klaus Schulze, and The Stooges. I still listen to early Rush regularly.
I discovered MP about five years ago through Dime and Spacebandit, thank you very much! Though I have downloaded something like 200 MP shows from Dime and listened them all, I have never had the discretionary funds available to actually purchase any of their officially released music, nor have I ever had the good fortune to see even one live show. I am quite envious of those who have the opportunity!
That said, my two cents on the MP and Rush topic is that Caress of Steel is the Rush album I would be most inclined to associate with MP.
Space is dark, it is so endless
When you're lost it's so relentless
It is so big, it is so small
Why does man try to act so tall
Is this the reason, deep in our minds?
It does not feel, it does not die
Space is neither truth nor lie
Into the void we have to travel
To find the clue which will unravel
Is this the reason, deep in our minds?
The secret lies with our tomorrow
In each of us is a hidden sorrow
The path goes onward through the night
Beyond the realms of ancient light
Is this the reason, deep in our minds?
Dudes! Chill! A little detour has been taken beyond MP worshipping. I'm also happy not to have these "discussions" in here – since they rarely go anywhere – but there's also no need to belittle those who sometimes share a thought or two. I'm even a little surprised that it didn't happen (more) around The Tower's release considering its lyrical content. Quite the politically outspoken album for MP standards, no?
But anyway: Motorpsycho Yay! Rush Yayish! Interwebs Yayishish!
That part at 6'35'' in 577 is imho totally rush influenced. excellent stuff.
For me there's a big difference between Motorpsycho and Bands like Rush or Yes. Despite the musical brilliance of the latter they don't touch me emotionally most of the time – at least not as much as MP does so throughout their massive history. While MP offers melancholy, joy and/or aggression and regularly full psychodrama, bands like Rush and Yes come over as emotional castrates to me – not necessarily due to the vocal heights their singers reach but the emotional depths they fail to transport.
This is not a criticism of progressive rock as such – Crimson, Van der Graaf Generator, early Genesis or Magma do offer the full emotional range in massive, often more than satisfying (over-)doses to me. And yet I feel there's a tendency to fall into the "artisan trap" with many of those other so-called "progressive" bands then and now and to neglect emotion over excessive artistry.
Imho MP were also in danger of doing so in the Kenneth era, but regularly avoided most of those cliffs of musical sterility with their psychonautic abilities. That's vikings for you!
Quote:Despite the musical brilliance of the latter they don't touch me emotionally most of the time – at least not as much as MP does so throughout their massive history.I agree!
I hear you, Johnny. Though I gotta say, that for me, The Tower also often crosses the line into "excessive artistry".
Both are needed for really impressive music, I'd say, and the one exists by contrast to the other.
And yeah, the balance seems exactly right most of the time with MP, their music is for the heart, the mind and the balls, so no wonder it keeps grabbing, shaking and vitalizing us in the way it does! :MPD:
I'm with pfnuesel there, except for other albums besides The Tower cross that line, too. But that's totally ok. They're a band that loves to play out, due to their love for all kinds of music. You can't and shouldn't always curb your playing skills, where would be the fun in that? And how would you grow and explore new forms of expression if you did?
btw going back to Rush's sense of humour, isn't this just brilliant?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i2ZbJnkFEY&ab_channel=afterdf
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