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@ devotional: you call Bent's comments obnoxious? In my opinion it was just adequate to the situation of musicians who urgently wait to be allowed to gig again. Where's the problem with that?
You don't have to share his view anyway – just give him his right of opinion as you claim for yourself!
@Be: Thanks for sharing, but you're not trying to tell me that Andreas Beyer's article is a "debunk" of the CDRR? That's stretching even the "rather" in "rather scientific" a bit too far. The ICSLS are working on a refutation of his criticism as we speak, and you can read an early draft here: https://web.archive.org/web/20210301161354/https://cormandrostenreview.com/refutationofandreasbeyer/
@Johnny_Heartfield: Yes, I called them obnoxious. Not so much his stand on vaccination-passes, but his total rejection of any questioning of the official narrative on the basis of Trump and the alt right comes across as incredibly one-dimensional and small-minded to me. Sometimes what you fight is what you become.
(copied from the sandbox, because it belongs in this thread)
Hopefully my last post for the near future (if somebody doesn't accuse me of something I haven't said or deny something I've never done and I have to justify myself for it just because the person is not able to read, to understand, or to combine, and what only expresses itself
plays in his head, or what he has littered himself with from the media.
I have now tried everything that I understand by that, to create a more or less equal justice, even if I therefore had to rely a little more on one of the two sides:
Finally to all psychonauts who were able to maintain tolerance and differentiated thinking and also to those in the background who just read along, think their part and don't want to have anything to do with all the childish crap and just want their usual dose for more than a year missing Motorpsycho:
Apart from any restrictions, it is entirely up to Motorsycho and us how we can get back together. All of them, not just those who want to be vaccinated or those who do not want to be vaccinated.
Personally, I think it is possible to find a just solution for everyone if those who really want to have been vaccinated and the others are not.
So please, love you all again, and do not believe everyone (including the writer of these lines) has already eaten the wisdom or knows the truth.
Nobody really knows what the future will bring, but it is up to us to level it.
So I apologize for the annoyance. I'd rather write about other things too. But I'd much rather hear Motorpsycho live again. Like all of us.
Constructive suggestions in this regard would be great.
Gladly in a new thread. And gladly also without me.
Otherwise, until further notice, adios. Now the needle-junkie have to listen to all the Motorpsycho records on vinyl one after the other in order to be able to reflect on the essentials in life.
cheers
(translated (this time) by google translate. and last words: Maybe my sense of humour doesn´t work in my bad english, at digital places, behind a mask and in quarantine, without seeing und feeling humans)
Perhaps you are correct and the authors of the Corman-Drosten Review have it wrong. The rebuttal you cite appears, on a superficial reading, quite persuasive. Really, though, you (I presume) and I (definitely) would struggle to be sure who is correct. This is why I say that I could be wrong in listening to scientists and doctors warning about aspects of this crisis we are passing through.
However, if the authors of this report are not sufficiently highly or specifically qualified, would you pay attention to the Nobel Prize-winning inventor of the PCR 'test' himself? (See post to come.)
Beyond the authors of this report, there are many, many more scientists and doctors trying to warn. Of course, they don't all say the same thing, because there is no such thing as 'the science'. Science is never 'settled'. In case you worry that they are not sufficiently highly or specifically qualified, be assured that there are molecular biologists among them.
As a layman, trying to weigh up what different groups of scientists and doctors are telling me, I have on the one hand the 'trusted' experts (the only ones most people get to hear from), who have driven through the policies on lockdowns that have caused untold damage, and who, it appears, might have serious conflicts of interest, while on the other hand I have the other experts (who you don't see on your TV or read about in your papers), who are being censored, banned, smeared, fired and who are losing their careers. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose. They are absolutely passionate about many things, but, perhaps most of all, about the possible disastrous long-term consequences of these new, experimental vaccines. (Please note: not vaccines in general. Please also note: long-term consequencees as opposed to immediate side-effects.)
Anybody not rushing out to get one of these experimental vaccines (the trials aren't finished yet) – instead preferring to ascertain exactly what they are signing up for – would do well to research pathogenic priming and cytokine storm.
If the warnings are correct, next winter could make what we have seen so far look like a tea party. This will be because of the experimental vaccines (but it will be blamed on new variants or viruses).
If you decide to get the jabs (now and every year for ever more), good luck to you. Just be sure you are giving your informed consent.
@ Punj Lizard
Tomorrow (Monday 15th March) at 16:30 (UK time), there will be a British Parliamentary
debate on the matter of vaccine passports in response to the e-petition that has
garnered nearly 300,000 signatures (100,000 are required to trigger a debate).
Let me try and respond to your invitation and make the case against vaccine passports.
It's difficult to speak about them in isolation from the new, experimental vaccines,
PCR 'tests', lockdowns, death certificates, etc., etc., especially as the very idea of
them coming in has already, by design perhaps, chivvied people into rolling up their
sleeves and offering themselves up…but I'll try.
I know you believe it is just a temporary thing, which enables live music to restart.
I understand why people don't see a problem, especially if they trust governments.
However, the French have a saying. It's something along these lines:
"The temporary becomes the permanent."
If I perhaps know you a little, Punj, I'd say you were a lover of freedom.
Can I jog your memory? Do you recall more than one attempt in recent history in the UK,
both by governments of the left (well, New Labour anyway) and the right, to introduce
ID cards? Why couldn't they push it through? Because people weren't having it!
These vaccine passports, I believe, will morph into ID cards. It is essentially what
they would be from the outset anyway.
History shows us time and time again that when governments award themselves emergency
powers, they rarely give them up easily. I rather doubt that vaccine passports will
be restricted just to international travel, gigs, restaurants and the like. I believe
they might be required if you want to go to work or even buy food. This, essentially,
would make them mandatory.
This, in turn, would effectively make taking the new, experimental vaccines compulsory.
Many people have very good reasons for not wanting to take them. I particularly wonder
what happens to people with a history of serious adverse reaction.
(And, yes, I can hear someone out there shouting, "Nobody cares!")
Do we also talk about privacy? Are we not bothered that these cards could carry a
wealth of personal data. I mean, you have considered that, right? Are you OK with that?
I also think not many people have factored in that you will be continually having
to fork out for tests to keep your passport valid. More money rolling in for someone…
By the way, if Tony Blair is really pushing something, doesn't that give you pause
for thought?
What happens when the stories start coming through that people are faking these
vaccine passports? Perhaps the reports will be true; perhaps not. It hardly matters.
Just wait and see. They will come. And then, what do you suppose will be the
proposed solution?
And will everyone on this forum be gagging for that too?
I fear this plan might have been long in the making.
I have great sympathy for Bent and the other guys. They've got to make a living.
If they start considering the ramifications of going with vaccine passports, it
puts them in a very difficult position. That, of course, would be the motivation
not to look closely.
I'm hanging onto the hope that Bent is going to come around. We all know that MP work
incredibly hard. It takes time to get to grips with this question – time he perhaps
hasn't had, because of his devotion to music-making (for which I am usually so
grateful).
I'm sorry. I can't resist quoting Sister Sledge:
"We're lost in music –
Caught in a trap."
I think he might just take another look. I really hope so.
Devotional said, "Sometimes what you fight is what you become." Maybe the left/right
pantomime is the best trick in the book. So, you look at Trump and the alt-right, and
you see lies, bigotry and hatred. Understandably, you want to run in the opposite
direction. But, do you apply the same scrutiny to that which you are embracing?
Left or right? It's like backing one horse when both are owned by the same stable.
It appears to me that virtually all the politicians of the left, right or centre, all
around the world, who have any chance of getting near power, are already bought and
paid for.
I'm going to leave you with this short video. It's a prediction about something like
what we're witnessing, made back in 2012 by Thomas Sheridan (not Tommy Sheridan). I don't
necessarily subscribe to everything he says. but it's well worth a look.
Anybody here care about freedom?
Haha! ID Cards – the invention of the devil! I just wonder why we're still alive and free in Germany, having had ID Cards for decades and even digital ones for quite a while, at the same time being the country that spearheads data owners rights in the EU and worldwide. As long as you don't inject them they're rather harmless. A good example how public paranoia can turn a minor calamity (with dangerous potentiality though) into the downfall of the free world. Same with vaccination and vaccination passes. It is important how you handle that matter – the thing itself is not evil per se.
As for the left-right pantomime: it's really happening – on the extreme fringes. Alt-left and alt-right sometimes share similar totalitarian ideas. What with the crossing over of oppositions that the I Ging has been talking about for thousands of years?
However I'd like to put in a word for politicians – they're not all the same (even if old Lemmy said so), and some undergo the task of getting their hands dirty in everyday political business without actually selling out. Putting them all in the same box doesn't help at all. That's just radical talk – immaculate innocence doesn't exist – nowhere. To quote another dead hero of mine, and a capricorn too: "Well it's easy to be an idealist, cause you don't have to do it right now…" (Daevid Allen – Negotiate).
@ suntripper: please stop treating other people's views as a kind of illness – Bent doesn't have to "come around", and neither does anyone else with diverging opinions. Though I'm sometimes tempted to think along the same lines
Kid A
Quote:Get your shit together… all of you. What many people don’t get, this shouldn’t be about ideology. It’s just a crappy situation we got ourselves in, due too many decades of disastrous lifestyle in the Western Hemisphere.and
ThorEgil
Quote:Covid-19 is not politics, fascism or a conspiracy. It's a disease with a fatality rate at around 2%, and about 10% get serious long term effects.There will be no festivals, tours or big concerts before the majority of the population is vaccinated – or the 2% of the population is dead…
That's a fact. Deal with it.
Pretty much my thoughts. Some put way too much personal politics and ideology into it. It's a fucking drag, a stupid disease, didn't come out of the blue, though. As Kid A put it, it's a consequence of how we live, so yes there is some politics or rather a way to look at life and how to live it in there. But the dealing with it right now and the foreseeable future shouldn't be tainted by politics. I repeat myself: It's not a personal matter, it's a widespread community matter. So individuality is not quite the top priority. I'm working in the health department with disabled and/or elderly people. Their lives aren't sugar coated even without a deadly virus. So yes I'm very annoyed by egocentric views of people who think they lose some kind of freedom if they have to adapt a teeny bit of their routines to life under a deadly virus.
Some wrote this is the wrong place/board/phorum. I disagree. It's only one thread, that should be allowed. I'm interested in what you guys think. Or do you only want to talk about which MP record is the best one to grow mushrooms to?
Now it's covid-19. We also have the climate change issue. I shudder to think what the naysayers and anti vaccers will do when (or rather if) there will finally be some new "rules" installed. "I'm a free and independent thinking person and no fascist governement is telling me how much carbon dioxide I can throw around!"
@ suntripper:
That's what I meant – It depends what you do with the tools you have – ID, Vaccine etc.
As for Daevid Allen – met him once in Glastonbury High Street in 1992. Sadly he was in no good shape and had to cancel the Magick Brothers gig at the Festival. But I went to a Gilli Smyth performance at the King Arthur the year after, which was great. Daevid Allen – another one to be sadly missed.
Quote:I'm working in the health department with disabled and/or elderly people. Their lives aren't sugar coated even without a deadly virus. So yes I'm very annoyed by egocentric views of people who think they lose some kind of freedom if they have to adapt a teeny bit of their routines to life under a deadly virus.First of all, I take my hat off to you for doing that kind of work rather than chasing money and a bogus form of status. I also pay tribute to you for asserting that having this discussion here is perfectly valid. However, I must ask, do you really think I am so inhuman as to care less about such vulnerable people than I do about my little bit of freedom? What makes you think that?
I won't get offended, because I know you can't have grasped what I am trying to say. The reason I continue here, despite all the sniping so unbecoming of this place, is precisely because I am extremely concerned about the future of the elderly and disabled, but also, increasingly, about the future of us all.
Before I attempt another explanation of my concerns, let me reiterate. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
Also, please forget about what you think is my opinion. This isn't about my opinion. I simply want to share the warnings being given by scientists and doctors – warnings that are being suppressed (a concern in and of itself).
I have never in my life wished harder for something to be wrong.
The warnings state that the new experimental vaccines will transform something that has perhaps been like a bad flu into something far, far worse.
One explanation describes how the new experimental vaccines will cause pathogenic priming. This means that when the vaccinated individual encounters the next coronavirus in the wild (and that could even be the common cold), the immune system will go berserk. It is a well known phenomenon called cytokine storm. The end result is something like sepsis, followed by organ failure – probably sudden cardiac arrest.
Because of your work, you might be interested to hear of very recent developments in care homes in the UK, where, of course, the vaccine roll-out is more advanced than anywhere else other than Israel (a lot of bad stories coming out of there, by the way). Two examples are in Exmouth and Sidmouth. Staff had worked very hard for many months to keep these places clear of COVID-19. In January, residents were vaccinated. Now they are suddenly dying in numbers. This could be an early example of what we might see much more of next winter.
The vaccines are not being blamed. Is it coincidence? If you die within 28 days of a so-called positive PCR 'test', no matter what the actual cause, your death is added to the COVID-19 statistics. However, if you die within 28 days of a new experimental vaccine, it can't be the vaccine!
Scientists have been trying to develop coronavirus vaccines since 2002 (with SARS, MERS, etc. causing concern). It turned out that it was very difficult to do. They would give the vaccines to animals (most notably, ferrets), and all would seem well at first. It was only later, when the animals encountered the wild form of the virus, that things went wrong. The animals kept dying, because of pathogenic priming and cytokine storm. So, attempts to develop coronavirus vaccines were abandoned, and strong cautions were issued regarding any future attempts to develop coronavirus vaccines.
Fast forward to now, and suddenly we are to accept that all these problems have recently, and very quickly, been overcome? Do we have the transparency to be able to assure ourselves of this? No. Can these pharmaceutical companies stretch time in order to test for long-term effects? What do you reckon?
The trials, such has they are, aren't even over yet!
And remember, the pharmaceutical companies have ensured that they are granted immunity from prosecution all around the world, even if you could demonstrate that you had been damaged, assuming you were still alive.
If the warnings currently being sounded are correct, then we would expect to see the real problems begin next autumn, when many will have been vaccinated and then they start encountering the season's viruses as they circulate (northern hemisphere).
As well as the terms pathogenic priming and cytokine storm, other names for the same processes include: immuno-priming, immune super-priming, antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE), antibody-induced enhancement and immune enhancement.
Four warning about this possibility (there are many more) are:
Professor Dolores Cahill
Dr Sucharit Bhakdi
Dr James Lyons-Weiler
Dr Michael Yeadon
As I've said before, you have a bounty of information at your fingertips. I've already given more than enough leads, as have Devotional and the conscience, for anybody to find out for themselves. Just know that YouTube, Facebook and others are doing their best to shut down these warnings, so you have to dig a little. If you still think Wikipedia and the fact-checkers are independent and without bias, I don't think I can help you.
And hey, if anybody does have a good look and can come back, not with tales of how these individuals have been smeared, but with convincing explanations of why they are wrong, I'm absolutely ready to hear it!
For me, by far the best outcome would be that, after the next two winters, say in summer 2023, none of what has been warned against has come about. I would very gladly read on here tons of ridicule at my expense. I would happily lie on the floor while you all kick me and tell me what an idiot I was to pay any heed to such nonsense, and I would thank you for it.
If you can't be bothered looking up the names listed above, or discovering all the others issuing dire warnings, here are a couple of links to the warnings of an individual who explains that the bodies of the vaccinated will be incubating increasingly dangerous forms of the virus. He would appear to be another laying his reputation on the line. This is very new. So far, I have given him less scrutiny than the others. Is he right? I hope not.
This is a Belgian pro-vaccine vaccine expert who has worked for GSK, Novartis, Gavi and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
So, not an 'anti-vaxxer' then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9PdZn_Yd5w&t=89s
By the way, anyone out there with the balls and decency of Devotional and the conscience, who is perhaps coming late to this thread. Don't be intimidated. Come and add your voice.
@ThorEgil, the problem is much more extensive then just vaccine all people and then go back to normal life. Where you have that info from?
And that comparison:
No. of Covid-19 cases: 117.754.621 – No. of deaths: 2.612.289
No. of vaccines: 181.161.945 – No. of confirmed deaths from vaccines: 0
So now because of these number I should go and vaccince. What logic contains that?
Concerning Vanden Bossche's theories, especially when you yourself referring to Dr Yeadon, I hope that this can soothe you and reduce your worries:
Apologies in advance for what might turn out to be a long post.
To start with, let me just get one thing off my chest: we’re fucked. I strongly believe that the human race as it currently stands is fucked. Not only are we dealing with what will likely be the first of many more pandemics as we wilfully brush the natural world further and further aside in our desire to consume and grow, but in the background climate change continues apace as does a significant drop in fertility rates. We’re fucked. You can take any wild figures you like, and pick holes in any arguments if you wish, but my personal feeling is that the human global population will likely have been cut by about 80% within the next 200 years. But who knows, maybe we’ll scrape through relatively unharmed.
So when it comes to talking about vaccine passports and the like, I struggle somewhat to see the world in terms that deal with what, in the bigger scheme of things, could be considered micro issues (for want of a better, less dismissive, descriptive). I constantly flick from the micro to the macro, finding it difficult to keep grasp of one without being overwhelmed by the other.
As I stated in relation to vaccination passports, I see no problem with them at present if they are used temporarily. But I do agree that there are very serious issues in terms of their potential wider, permanent use. When the pandemic was just starting to gain traction in Europe one of my best friends said he saw an opportunity for something better to grow out of the situation – for people to take value in a simpler life, for a greener recovery, etc. My response was that I see an opportunity for greater authoritarianism and control by those who hold power. While both are still possible, and in some countries the former seems to have the advantage, most countries, including the UK, where I live, is heading for greater authoritarianism. No surprise given the current government, and totally predictable given the way the Tory government and in particular the people who are currently running it acted leading up to and since the Brexit vote.
Suntripper – you said, ‘I know you believe it is just a temporary thing …’. You misunderstood me – I do not believe it is a temporary thing – I believe that IF they are introduced as a temporary thing to facilitate the opening of clubs and the like, THEN I think they’ll be OK.
As for ID cards in general, I have to say I find it hugely ironic that (1) the general population is fine with numerous forms of ID (passports and driver’s licenses and whatever else banks, mortgage lenders, credit checkers, landlords, mobile phone companies, etc. demand before they’ll do business with you), but balk at one more, when all those others are all already or increasingly connected (2) people are worried about the data that governments and corporations will have access to when all that data is already available on your phones, and through all those other contracts you signed and forms you filled out for all the other things you wanted or needed. And if you’re worried about not being able to get a job or food without one of these ID cards, spend some time with homeless people who are already in that situation because they can’t provide evidence of an address, a bank account, and all those other things I already listed that are demanded of each of us. At this stage ID cards will not create anything that isn’t already here and that the vast majority of the population willingly already sign up to. As for erosion of privacy? Forget about it, that ship sailed with all that other stuff – a lot of it on the back of 9/11 and the ‘War on Terror’, though it started well before that – just look at censuses, especially censuses conducted by European countries in their imperial conquests.
So your fear, Suntripper, that this ‘plan might have been long in the making’, well, I believe that in one way you’d be correct, but that it’s not a new plan that reads, ‘let’s have an pandemic so we can control everyone’ (what I believe the conspiracy theorists are calling a ‘plandemic’), it’s the planning of powerful people who, like most thieves, know an opportunity when they see one and THEN make their plans.
As for the ‘warnings being given by scientists and doctors’, I totally accept that they are out there and I’ve taken time to listen to a few (including Dr Yeadon) because I have long-time friends who have posted them and when I’m interested in gathering information I tend to want to hear what the naysayers are also saying. For example, for a short period I got deeply involved in Extinction Rebellion. But what I quickly realised was that I absolutely had to read up as much as I could on the subject. But that also required that I follow through when confronted by people who have come to be known as climate change deniers, so that I read what they presented and had the information to challenge them if I thought they were wrong. Most prominently, what I discovered was the following kinds of statements: qualified climate experts and scientists say it’s a hoax; they are being silenced; watch this YouTube video – the presenter is a scientist; read this paper – the writer is a climatologist. So I did. And what I discovered was that even though there were thousands of climatologists and scientists claiming climate change is real and presenting countless quantities of data to back up their findings in peer-reviewed journals and the like, the deniers cherry-picked a handful of scientists and papers to put their argument across, completely ignoring (silencing in their own way) the huge wealth of data that disagreed with them. ‘50 scientists have handed a paper to the UN explaining why climate change is a hoax’ – this was one post that did the rounds a lot when I was active. I looked it up. It was a 10 or 12-point opinion piece submitted by ‘The Friends of Science’, and signed by 12-15 signatories, a few of whom were scientists, primarily working in oil and gas. The paper had not one scientific statement, contained no scientific data, and made zero references to any scientific data or papers (oddly out of keeping with the organisation’s name). The Friends of Science, based in Calgary, Canada, are an advocacy group who were found to have gone to great lengths to cover the source of their funding, which, surprise surprise, was mostly oil and gas interests. Once again – another cherry-picked item that deniers were using to spread misinformation and distrust among the general public, most of whom would not have bothered to look any further. This cherry-picking strategy seems to be widely evident among all those I know or have come across who would have us believe, as you, Suntripper stated, that coronavirus is ‘something that has perhaps been like a bad flu’ – a statement I’ll return to at the end of this.
Cytokine storms – I’d never heard of these before last March/April. They are indeed a very real and nightmarish thing. And they are, as I understand it, one of the potential outcomes of contracting COVID-19. They have been in evidence throughout the pandemic and have been the cause of numerous deaths. Generally they are relatively rare, but are unfortunately part of the way the body reacts to the ‘novel’ coronavirus.
Deaths in care homes following vaccination – you gave two examples in the UK, one is Sidmouth, one in Exmouth. That’s two – out of how many care homes in the UK? Over 21,000 at last count. I’ll give you a third so you can increase the percentage of known occurrences (known to those of us on this thread, that is) from maybe 0.01% to 0.014%.
My wife is a domestic housekeeper at a nursing home. She has worked in this role in nursing homes for almost 20 years. Domestic housekeepers are on the frontline of infection control. Their job is not to care for residents, they are not carers, and they are not nurses or admin workers. They’re at the bottom of the ladder and generally treated as such, by management, nurses, carers, the general public, residents and even themselves. Their work is not seen as of particularly great value and consequently a lot of domestics (cleaners, as their commonly known) don’t value their own work either. My wife is perhaps an exception in this regard. She also an exception in that she treats the residents as her bosses, and less so her supervisors or the nursing home management. As far as she’s concerned, the residents pay her wages. No residents = no job.
Back in April her care home was hit by the virus and 8 of the 60 residents died, as did her supervisor. They were all deemed to have contracted COVID-19. The number of deaths was excessive. This was not normal. This was not a bad case of the flu. This was not people dying of the things they were in the care home for. Some of the residents are simply old nuns and priests (the care home is connected to the Catholic Church and a Catholic charity). But there were some, including my wife’s supervisor, who had what we now call underlying conditions that made them susceptible to severe reactions and possibly death if they contracted COVID. We can say that without COVID, most of them would have lived longer.
After that wave, the summer and autumn passed without incident. The nursing home employed a new head housekeeper to replace my wife’s dead supervisor. She had worked as head housekeeper at another nursing home where one of my wife’s friend’s works (as with many fields, it’s a small world and many of the people who work in nursing homes around the area know one another). The death toll at that nursing home during the first wave had been catastrophic – well over 50% of the residents had died.
By the late autumn, when case numbers were on the rise again in the UK, the nursing home had the following testing system in place: all staff, tested by half-hour test every day and sent home to self-isolate for two weeks if testing positive. All residents and all staff tested twice a week on the more reliable two-day test. Weeks and weeks went by with nothing more than the occasional staff member testing positive on the less reliable half-hour test – maybe four positive tests over a period of about two months. In early January, on one day all staff and all residents were vaccinated, with the exception of a few (including my wife’s new supervisor) who, for whatever reasons, opted out.
That same week positive tests started showing up, first among a couple residents on one wing of the home and then spreading throughout that wing and into the other three. Within two weeks 10 residents had died. So there you are, a third example you can add to your very short list of care homes in which people died from COVID within days of being vaccinated.
Now look a little closer. The home has four wings, each with 15 residents. In one wing every single resident and staff member tested positive, and 8 residents died. In another, most tested positive and 2 died. In a third, half tested positive and no-one died. In my wife’s wing, 2 residents and no staff tested positive and no-one died. An array of results, yet they all, on the same day, had the same vaccination. Surely, if the vaccine were to blame, we could expect similar results across the whole nursing home, couldn’t we? So why the unusual data. Well one theory, which my wife believes, is the cavalier attitude displayed by her new supervisor. One of the main thrusts in her ‘policy’ changes since coming to the nursing home has been to cut back on certain practices so she can meet her budget. One of these cutbacks has been to instruct her staff to use the same cleaning cloths over and over and over, rather than using disposable ones. Environmentally her choice is the right one, and it helps her meet her budget. But for infection control, especially during a pandemic with a virus that is highly transmissible, it’s a dreadful policy. My wife, being who she is, ignored it. She continued to use disposable cloths, as did everyone on her wing who all decided not to do so could be disastrous. This is one of a few new practices the new supervisor introduced that they chose to ignore. My wife believes that was crucial in halting the spread of the virus in her wing and the consequent saving of lives. She also believes that what aided the spreading of the virus and loss of lives in the other wings, especially the one that lost 8 residents, was the cavalier attitude of her new supervisor who (1) had been in charge of housekeeping at a care home that was decimated during the first wave, (2) had introduced questionable practices vis-à -vis infection control, (3) was the prime domestic housekeeper working on the wing that was hit hardest. There is no indication of the outbreak and deaths being caused by the vaccine – only a coincidence in the arrival of the virus in the home (most likely brought in by one of two contract workers who were needed to cover absentees) during the same week everyone was vaccinated. And I repeat, if the vaccine had been the cause, data would show that it had spread more evenly throughout the home. Moreover, the same results would be seen up and down the country, in large overwhelmingly undeniable numbers and unsilenceable numbers. Based on conversations my wife has had with friends and colleagues working in other care homes in the local area, none have suffered the same coincidence.
‘something that has perhaps been like a bad flu’ – data and evidence and thousands and thousands of scientists, doctors, epidemiologists and virologists overwhelmingly disagree, most of them vehemently. And that’s not cherry-picking a few names. Furthermore, roughly 125,000 excess deaths since the first death attributed to COVID-19 in the UK disagree. (Excess deaths defined as number of deaths higher than the five-year average.)
I don’t need you to believe anything different than what you choose. And I certainly wouldn’t want you to have a vaccine you don’t approve of, or to sign-up for a vaccine passport scheme you disapprove of. And I really wouldn’t want those choices taken away from you. I also wouldn’t expect you to trust the current UK government, or Tony Blair. I don’t trust either of them. But like all things, there’s no black and white in much of this. There are degrees and spectrums. I guess we all find our own spot based on what we read, hear, think, feel.
I don’t think I have much to add to this discussion so please forgive me if I don’t respond further, though I will read whatever is posted here.
Sail on.
@Punj Lizard
It has been very bad. Don't imagine that I belittle it with my 'bad flu' term. Don't forget, flu kills tens of thousands every year, so flu is not a trivial thing.
Just to compare with your wife's very wise precautions, when I go out shopping, as well as a mask, I wear glasses and surgical gloves. I cover the gloves with gunge. I use a different pair for every shop. I use each pair again (rather than throw them away) only after some weeks have passed. I wipe all the packaging with gunge when I return, and wash fruit and vegetables thoroughly. Of course, I also keep my distance from others. Actually, I don't know anyone that goes to the lengths I do. I never see anyone else in the shops wearing gloves, and I realise that people probably think I am an idiot.
I couldn't have been taking this more seriously.
The use of the term 'bad flu' (I don't know, maybe if I'd taken time I could have come up with something better, but it would have been more wordy) was intended to make the contrast between what we have so far witnessed and what may lie in store.
I think bringing comparisons with climate change debates into this is bringing in something which tends to be polarising and which is not relevant. This subject should not be polarising. It has many strands and is far from straightforward (which is not to say that climate change is straightforward, but let's keep it separate).
You also raised the subject of the homeless. I couldn't be more familiar with the plight of the homeless, having had them stay in my home on several occasions. Anybody who doubts the scale of the problem should visit Bristol city centre on Christmas Day. You wouldn't be able to accuse the dozens of people trying to get some precious sleep in a shop doorway on a quiet day of being beggars posing as homeless. But let's also leave that subject.
The drop in fertility rates to which you briefly allude should have been at the top of the news agenda for many years. So why hasn't it been? And what are the causes of this alarming drop? You touch on something of the most profound importance, and maybe it isn't entirely unconnected to our discussion.
You are quite right about data and the loss of privacy and that ship having sailed, as you accurately pinpoint, particularly since 9/11 and the 'War on Terror'. It is just interesting to note how, in the USA, the enormous Patriot Act was drafted so quickly and pushed through in the wake of 9/11. Nobody could have digested it all. Should we read anything into that? Anyway, let's not go there either.
What we don't yet have, however, is all our data on an implantable microchip. Cue predictable howls of derision from those who don't see that we are on the path towards this. Vaccine passports are a step along that path.
Yes, recently, cytokine storm has been highlighted as a product of COVID-19. I see no reason why it shouldn't be. However, the warnings are that this risk will be enormously magnified by the new experimental vaccines.
Now, because of your doubts about some climate change scientists, is that a reason to dismiss these scientists?
They could be wrong. I hope they're wrong. But, shouldn't they have a hearing instead of being censored? What if they are right? Why is the precautionry principle always thrown out of the window?
Don't opt out of the thread, Punj. I'm not interested in having an argument with anyone. I am only interested in having a discussion, and everyone (well, most people anyway) has a valuable angle to bring. The more the better (minus the bullies).
And no, we are not 'fucked'. We must not allow ourselves to think that. But we do have to recognise that we are ruled by sociopaths. And that is our fault. Once we see that, we don't have to be 'fucked' any more.
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