- This topic has 286 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by bionaut.
March 16, 2021 at 13:44 #38359Kid AParticipant
Some thoughts and then IÂ´m out, too
@Punj Thoughtful and reflective as ever, thank you
@suntripper Look up the term "false balance". In a scientific discussion, not every voice should be heard. Sometimes I think, every single vet on this planet had sth to say about Covid. IÂ´ll stick to the virologists and epidemiologists that are recognized by the international scientific community. You can have different opinions how to deal with the facts (Close or open schools, lockdown or not and so on) but facts are facts and I think itÂ´s ok to "silence" people, who just confuse other people with their self-rightous half-knowledge. Most of it is not about science, but about big egos.
And at last, we are ruled by the people we chose to. If they are sociopaths (and youÂ´re right, most of them are), what does this say about us?
Peace out to all of you, stay safe, stay cool headed, care for your fellow men, listen to your heart and then maybe we all have a chance to safe the mothership.March 16, 2021 at 13:46 #38360
Child of the Future next, The album which is responsible for a second life as a needle junkie.
thanks for everybody still sharing their very important thoughts or so called facts while I am listening MP. Good to see you go on…
Zitat von Arthur Schopenhauer
â€žWir sind nicht nur fÃ¼r das verantwortlich, was wir tun, sondern auch fÃ¼r das, was wir widerspruchslos hinnehmen.â€œ
Quote from Arthur Schopenhauer
â€œWe are not only responsible for what we do, but also for what we accept without contradiction. "March 16, 2021 at 17:28 #38361
@ Kid A
I understand the concept of false balance, but will you concede that there is a big difference between, on the one hand, the arguments for and against, say, an even two-handed discussion in a national TV studio in which one person represents 90% of the number of experts and the other 10%, and, on the other hand, kicking every dissenting expert off every major internet platform?Quote:…not every voice should be heard…itÂ´s ok to "silence" people
Are you sure about that? Shall I put you down under the heading, 'don't care about freedom'?
My grandfather had a reserved occupation. He didn't have to go to war, but he felt compelled to do so in order to help defeat an evil tyranny, and he gave his life in the process. Under that regime, there was a prevailing scientific orthodoxy, from which sprang the most heinous acts. If you spend just a couple of moments looking at it, you will soon see that it was utterly insane. However, at the time, if, as a scientist, you spoke against it, your career was over. There have been many similar examples throughout history.
But it could never be happenning here and now, could it?
'The international scientific community' is one of those phrases that sits alongside 'the science says'. Is it so unbelievable that the actually quite small number of experts driving policy forward could have, in polite terms, a conflict of interests? What is the basis for your child-like faith in them?
Perhaps the scientists who are trying to warn us, and whom you want silenced, are 'self-righteous', and do have 'big egos'. I am not able to judge. How are you able to judge?
These would have to be egos so large that they don't take into consideration the likely ridicule and condemnation from their peers? Isn't it more likely that, If you had a big ego, you would want the approval that goes with swimming in the mainstream and saying all the 'right' things?
On what basis do you ascribe to these scientists 'half-knowledge'?
I don't know what your beef is with vets, but a professor of molecular biology, former chief scientist at Pfizer, etc. – they're not vets, are they?
But, to speak up for vets: they are intelligent people, who have studied for years, and have many more years real-world experience. Are you so sure a vet would not be able to work out what is going on?Quote:Facts are facts.
Where do I go with that one?! It's unarguable, isn't it? You've got me!
It's so interesting that all the vicious, personal attacks, whether on the scientists trying to warn us or on those of us here trying to give ear to them, come from people who want to believe things are just as they are presented.
Why is that? I'm sure it reveals something.
Actually, I would really like to believe that things are basically all above-board too, but I'm not prepared simply to dismiss these other voices. The stakes are too high.
As i keep repeating ad nauseam, I hope they're wrong, and I hope I am an idiot for listening to them.
That Schopenhauer quote is just absolutely perfect.March 16, 2021 at 19:00 #38362
I will try not to heat this debate even more. Just a word to "things in the making" – mentioned above by various posters.
There are always conspiracies around – petty ones and global ones, mostly businessmen from the communal grocer to the global company CEO trying to grab a bigger piece of the common cake. There have always been political and/or power groups that have tried to control others. But most of these conspiracies have failed. They're not the problem.
Sometimes it is just developments that all of us – voluntarily or unvoluntarily – push that cause what we, always in need of a culprit and an easy explanation, call conspiracy. Sometimes the "things in the making" are making themselves as part of long-term developments in our societies and cultures. I will not even try to touch any esoteric theories of influencing global developments here – it is just the way that we live, work, make your money, consume that allows other people to built up power (administrative control, business control, media manipulation).
We have probably not built that system ourselves, but we are born into it, are part of it and contribute to its developments, if we like it or not. Capitalism leads to manipulation of truth via advertising, to mind control via consumerism, to violence, war and totalitarism via projection of fears and suppression of suffering. And yet it has created a global environment that allows us the maximum of freedom, human rights and well-being – while at the same time causing us to destroy the planet we live on.
No wonder all of us have problems to come to grips with that, mistrust institutions and detect evil possibilities in the smallest phenomena. And still we are feeding the destruction machines – the "real" ones and above all the communication channels of "social" media with all of its antisocial outcome, help to turn the wheel faster and faster…
Those with an instinctive feeling that something is wrong elect leaders that turn out even worse – any effort at reaching salvation is being doomed from the start.
It is probably us that are in the making – undergoing painful changes that may or may not make us wiser in the end. Which certainly does not go without suffering.
We live in the Egg
We have covered the inside wall of the shell with dirty drawings
and the christian names of our enemies
We are being hatched
Amen!March 16, 2021 at 20:09 #38363
Thank you for trying to soothe me and reduce my worries, and thank you for being friendly.
I had a look at the Dr. Michael Yeadon article to which you referred,
but I'm afraid I couldn't find much comfort in it.
The authors refer to the long observed pattern of the evolution of viruses towards being less dangerous. It is not in the viruses' interests to kill everybody, since they want to spread. So that would be good, but, unfortunately, it applies only if they are left alone, as the article explains.
My understanding is that this attenuation is why the Spanish Flu (February 2018 – April 2020) was all over in two years, without any intervention.
The authors say that the variants around just now are not more dangerous than the 'original', even though we are being told the opposite, and this would certainly be in line with expectations.
However, they include this statement, which relates, I think, to Dr. Yeadon's view:
"Some feel that novel pharmaceuticals and non-pharmaceutical interventions â€“ or specific circumstances â€“ could possibly disrupt this evolutionary process and favour a more severe variant or threaten acquired immunity."
and they finish by warning that overconfidence in vaccine effectiveness for the very old could be a major risk.
Here is Dr. Yeadon's Coronavirus Vaccine Safety Petition. Note especially the first concern, regarding antibody-dependent amplification (antibody-dependent enhancement – ADE). This is the same as the pathogenic priming and cytokine storm I have been highlighting:
Other important points are highlighted in blue.
Maybe it's not bed-time reading!
You're making a lot of sense. Entries like that make this a great forum.March 17, 2021 at 06:32 #38364
There is two statments in this discussion that I could read repeatedly, as well as these ideas are often heard in the public:
The believe in vaccination and the fear of the virus.
So millions of people get vaccinated these days. What do you do if this vaccine doesn't help you or does only help you like the vaccination against influenza helps? Which would mean, mostly due to mutations of the virus: There is still a not so small remaining risk of getting infected by the virus and you have to vaccine again with every infection wave.
What you want to do then? You wanna stay seperated and wear masks until eternity?
And you are 100% sure that the fear of this virus isn't coming from the fact that just the whole world is talking about it day by day since over a year? It is horrible to see how much fear is made by governments and the media about this virus.
Millions of people loose their jobs, there is existential threat, I can't walk downtown open-air without wearing a mask. Open-air!
As a healthy person why you believe in vaccines and masks more than your own immun system? You were born with a mask or an immune system?
I mean if this vaccination is salvation and would have absolutely no side-effects, go get it.
But I strongly doubt this vaccination does end anything. Still infection waves, and then? Close up economy and seperate people with every wave again and again? Governments around the world started these lockdowns. You think they will change their minds then? If so they'd be regarded as unreliable. I doubt they would change their course.March 17, 2021 at 13:05 #38365
There is not only "belief" in vaccination, but lots of research and learning involved in producing and testing the vaccines. No denying that. There is strong evidence that vaccination helps avoid heavy illness and spreading CoViD-infection. This has been proven almost to absolute fact level.
What is not yet known is the possibility of long term damages through vaccination – according to theory and evidence – millions of cases (people vaccined) – this is quite unlikely.
Still – you don't know with absolute saftey that you won't catch the virus or any side effects of vaccination. It is a bet – though quite safe, grounded on reliable experience.
The great numbers of job losses, kids not being able to go to school, economic damages etc. are mostly due to incapable politics and inadequate measures (which again are the result of our incapability of social discipline or even grasping the situation). There are hardly any losses of that kind in East Asia (at least much less than in Europe or North America). So it is our mixture of freedom loving and stubborn idiocy that creates damage, not the adequate fight against the virus itself.
The producing of fear is another side effect of the urgency of the virus problem – not the other way around. Sensible governments try to avoid panic – yet the (obviouly necessary) repeated appeals to saftey measures and the need of vaccination create just that. But you can't laugh away the virus – as you can't meditate it away, at least if you've not reached graduate enlightenment status. Trying to witch or wish problems away is just naive.
Therefore we cannot wait until we have 100% clarity that vaccination is salvation without any side-effects. We have to take bold risks and cannot hide in our little holes until the sky is clear again. My suggestion is definite: get vaccinated – voluntarily and socially responsible, bold and free!March 17, 2021 at 15:21 #38366
Are you truly fully informed about how very different these new experimental vaccines are from any vaccines that there have ever been before?
How do you know these vaccines are not going to produce serious problems in the long term?
I hope it isn't because Elton John told you they were safe…
In 1976, Elton John was also pushing the Swine Flu vaccine they wanted everyone to have (there was no need). That didn't go too well:
Have they got something on Elton?
(comments now turned off because the vast majority were scathing)
Yes, our immune systems are amazing. On the whole, only in those with weak immune systems (mainly the elderly) is COVID-19 a real problem. I don't make light of that. Every case is a tragedy. Old Lives Matter. Like most, I have elderly people close to me about whom I am very concerned. The brutal truth though is that flu, pneumonia and the like are often the 'straw that breaks the camel's back' at the end of life. So, either COVID-19 has been doing that job recently, or, at least perhaps in some case, it wasn't COVID-19, but that is what ended up on the death certificate.
For most, the immune system will deal with it – that is, until you start messing with everyone's immune systems with these very different, not properly tested, new experimental vaccines, produced by companies with long criminal records – companies that are immune from prosecution in the event of injury or death.
You want to gamble? I'd say all bets are off.March 17, 2021 at 16:07 #38367
Sorry, but it is absolutely no fact if the vaccine against covid is effective or not. Absolutely non. Like zero. There is mutations of the virus (that is a fact and a basic medical knowledge since centuries) and nobody knows if this vaccine will protect you against the covid virus. No study, no survey, no investigation can proof to this point. Nobody knows how the virus will evolve. Only the future will tell. At this point in time everything is testing and speculating but nobody does really know anything. We are collecting information and sorting out but nothing more.
Vaccines against polio, measles, mumps, rubella etc… yes. There is longtime evidence. We know exactly what it does.
And this is my personal view: Covid is an infection of the respiratory tract. Just like RS-Virus or Influenza. There has never been (and in my opinion will never be) a vaccine against this kind infection that will totally cease a virus of this kind. I'm not a doctor or virologist but a lifelong hospital staff and just like it's the case with Influenza: You will have to re-vaccine every year and the virus will still be there, just with less people infected. And if this is the case, I wrote my concerns in the other post.
About economical losses: I'm a regular Thailand visitor. The total breakdown of tourist income in only that country you don't call a loss? I know people from there, everything is shut down, since months. There is no social system rescueing these people. They live in poverty and now in even more poverty.
And the job losses in Europe? Incapable politics? What should they do? If they shut down everything. This is the system. They can't do anything but let people work again because this is how the system works. If they don't go to work there is no money generated. It's a free enterprise community which is only rolling when people go to work. And of course the people who do the hardest jobs get sparsely financel help and the big players get stuffed with money. But no surprise.
The fear about the virus is pumped up way too much than how dangerous the virus really is. If you don't knew numbers and no one would talk about it you wouldn't care at all.
And this made up fear plays in the hand of pharma companies just like suntripper wrote.
I just think this should be taken in consideration about our future. And yes, @suntripper, the trust in our immune system. It's strong, it's there to protect us against viruses, not masks and vaccines in the first place. There is no 100% safety in life, you can die of cancer, influenza, smoking, covid, car driving etc… That's life.March 17, 2021 at 18:11 #38368
My last reply on the matter:
Yes, I know the difference of the new mRNA Vaccines. No foreseeable problem there, they work (as tested in large studies with tens of thousands of people involved). A friend of mine who has already been vaccined is looking daily for growing tentacles – in vain. They are supposed not to alter the DNA cell code anyway, just deliver a short-term information to produce antigens before they dissolve. A very clever invention imho. Ironically some problems seem to arise with the more traditional vaccines (in very small numbers though).
As for mutations – of course there is some kind of competitive race between vaccines and the virusses, so we must adapt our stuff from time to time. Nothing is 100 per cent safe or efficient. 70 per cent is already quite a lot.
Long term problems may always arise – with any medicine or vaccine. We just don't know. What we know is that without vaccine we will not overcome CoViD easysily – and only with much more losses. Anything else is just blown-up insecurity and fear. Yes – I will probably have a strange feeling myself when getting the stuff, but these are emotions – the voice of reason says different.
And yes – our immune system is extremely important, and we should do everything to strengthen it. This is however a long-term effort and will probably not get us there in time. On the other hand the best immune system might not manage with some heavy attacks – without vaccination quite a few of you might not be here today, because your ancestors died of the pocks. Just relying on your immune system alone is – in extreme situations like that – like singing OMMMM to restart your broken down car (this sometimes works, but not regularly).
The Nietzschean argument that the strong survive implies "let the weak and feeble die" and is therefore quite perverse. And yes – we must take risks, yet it is not a sheer gamble, but a bet on rather extensive studies and experiences made in the last few years. The chances are good (that this vaccine will respond to you, as FZ might say…)
And denying the dangers of the virus is just stupid (sorry, folks). There have been enough deaths, heavy long-term cases and other casualties around, albeit probably not in your direct circle, because there are so many of us. We must somehow rely on the information we get – and the regular media is much more suited for that than the usual paranoia and rumour bubbles in the web, even if they have their faults too. If you start relying on the latter alone you might as well go back to the stone-age cave.
This sounds harsh, but without proven information (chequed by institutions more or less trustworthy) we are blind. This sounds naive, but rather that than entirely dumb or completely disorientated.
And a last point: Lots of scientists join the paranoia express as well out of competition matters or craving for importance and acknowledgement. Not every scientist is an expert on every matter. And even some specialists go astray. The scientific community has to discuss, argue und hopefully find out a relative truth. This is the regular process – we should therefore not take every comment as the final statement and firmly proven counter-truth.
At the same time most of us (myself included) do not have half the learning and training it takes to take part in these discussions with hopes for a sensible result. We're not medical specialists. Digging out every contradictory specialized opinion does not make sense except furthering our doubts and fears. (I think that's what Kid A pointed out above).
This is not merely an opinion, but based on common sense and experience – and while I acknowledge the need for doubts and understandable worries I cannot accept some of the arguments that I have heard here and elsewhere much too often. I fear this matter has become some sort of religious belief system for too many – and you can't argue with religion.
Despite metaphorically bashing some of you guys over the head several times I want to congratulate all of you for the way we lead this discussion – even if some of the points seem quite irrational to me or mine to others we have managed to behave in a human and friendly way as befits fellow psychonauts. And thanx four your patience with those awfully long forum entries. Peace and Love!
(And I should've read Punj Lizard's long entry a little more thoroughly, this would've saved me repeating several of his insights without having his detailed firsthand information )March 17, 2021 at 20:15 #38369
Exactly what were the profiles of those involved in the trials? How long did the trials last? Are they complete? Just a few of the questions one should ask.
As if I should need to make this point, I emphatically do not want the weak to die. Always and in everything, I feel it is my duty to defend the weak.
Who is making the Nietzchean argument? Why not look at the eugenicist roots of some of those involved in pushing the agenda?
One of the foremost Nietzcheans these days, it seeems, is Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, recently appointed to Biden's COVID-19 advisory board. He thinks that nobody should live beyond 75, and that health care should be apportioned according to how 'worthwhile' the life is. Take a look. This is for real. Avoiding the temptation to make cheap jokes about Biden's age, I'll just ask, is everyone comfortable with that?
Eugenics never went away, but it had to become stealthy. Don't imagine it is the exclusive preserve of the rabid right-winger.
"Forced vaccination. Immunity passports. The erection of a biosecurity state. For the first time, the eugenics-infused philosophers of bioethics are on the verge of gaining real power. And the public is still largely unaware of the discussions that these academics have been engaged in for decades."
'Bioethics and the New Eugenics'
Those who do not ask questions: wouldn't they be the ones with the 'religious belief system'?March 17, 2021 at 21:11 #38370
Das Ziel im Leben ist nicht auf der Seite der Mehrheit zu stehen, sondern aus den Reihen der Wahnsinnigen auszubrechen. (Marcus Aurelius)
The goal in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to break out of the ranks of the mad. (Marcus Aurelius)March 18, 2021 at 05:38 #38371
have the psychonauts been sleeping for eight hours? No, most of them have been sleeping for more than a year.March 18, 2021 at 06:25 #38372
While politicians are calling for a better digitization of humanity and economic bosses are calling for a new world order, for the last 14 years a writing psychonaut has been primarily concerned with the awareness of the individual in the hope of being able to make the planet a better place in this way . His conclusion: Apparently the only thing he can influence is his own being.
(The Motorpsycho-Forum) It is very nice to read that there are not only wonderful individuals among the analog psychonauts, but also very intelligent and very emotional people among the digital psychonauts, and a few leftover people are able to continue to doubt, or rather relate to relative high level. But we / they are all far from the depth of a Motorpsycho concert. With an exchange of blows of words and information from whatever media, we obviously don't get very far. When listening to music, on the other hand, one can reach far deeper states of consciousness.
Personally, I am slowly actually beginning to believe that the forced break from Motorpsycho concerts, or the presence there while sitting on chairs, had an effect on the intelligence, consciousness, emotions and also on the body of each individual, but unfortunately not for the better.
I actually wanted to say goodbye to this forum for a long time, because I could really spend my time better than running against walls here. At the same time, however, I still hope that the previous opinion of some psychonauts can still change. After all, mutants can do this every second.
I thank everyone who continues to fight for freedom on this planet, especially a person here who tries to educate people like no other.
I still hope he / she will be wrong with his prognoses and I may not have understood everything, but at least someone here is still unable to think in the short term as the current, vaccination advocates who believe and hope for these ways would solve all problems, but with the attention span that otherwise only analog psychonauts can muster, and which actually every psychonaut should have. How can it be that we are able to grasp works like Un Chien, Little Lucid Moments, The Crucible or NOX, but then think so briefly about the effects on all of our lives if we now think about them in this way Want to get the (alleged) pandemic under control, as proposed by politicians and Hum Bug, who would be completely overwhelmed with just five-minute pieces by Motorpsycho.
No sorry. I once decided to spend my life as meaningfully as possible, for Motorpsycho, for art, for freedom and against politics, religion, science and the mass media.
Even a virus cannot change that. No matter how small or large you want to make it.
What I've just written is not a final opinion either, it was rather a state of flow, an improvisation, a jam. But it did well.
Thank you Suntripper, Psychonaut of the year. May you be wrong with everything and have this forum completely in vain and unnecessarily littered. Nevertheless, I am infinitely grateful to you that someone here continues the fight for freedom while others are already tired.
Translated wie google translate from germanMarch 18, 2021 at 11:00 #38373
Not exactly off-topic, as Bill Gates is absolutely central to what is happening, and since other forum members keep on bringing climate change into the proceedings:
"Harvard Scientists Funded by Bill Gates to Begin Spraying Particles Into the Sky In Experiment to Dim the Sun"
Hmm,,, Think that's a good idea? Even if some predictions, based on solar cycles and activity as well as the historical record, that we're headed for a new mini-ice-age are wrong, it still doesn't strike me as 'awfully wise'.
I know you like your 'fact-checkers'. I thought I'd see how they handled this. One said,
"But there is no suggestion he is in favor of blocking all sunlight from reaching Earth." (my italics). You've got to laugh, haven't you?
Sociopaths like this, who have the real power, represent a grave danger not only to the human race, but to all life on the planet.
Or do you choose to believe?
On a related note, but more on topic, since it involves aerosol vaccines:
"NASA Admits Spraying Skies"
Since you can no longer call these 'conspiracy theories', the next stage is to tell me it's all perfectly OK – there's nothing to worry about. Good luck!
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