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@Punj Lizard
It has been very bad. Don't imagine that I belittle it with my 'bad flu' term. Don't forget, flu kills tens of thousands every year, so flu is not a trivial thing.
Just to compare with your wife's very wise precautions, when I go out shopping, as well as a mask, I wear glasses and surgical gloves. I cover the gloves with gunge. I use a different pair for every shop. I use each pair again (rather than throw them away) only after some weeks have passed. I wipe all the packaging with gunge when I return, and wash fruit and vegetables thoroughly. Of course, I also keep my distance from others. Actually, I don't know anyone that goes to the lengths I do. I never see anyone else in the shops wearing gloves, and I realise that people probably think I am an idiot.
I couldn't have been taking this more seriously.
The use of the term 'bad flu' (I don't know, maybe if I'd taken time I could have come up with something better, but it would have been more wordy) was intended to make the contrast between what we have so far witnessed and what may lie in store.
I think bringing comparisons with climate change debates into this is bringing in something which tends to be polarising and which is not relevant. This subject should not be polarising. It has many strands and is far from straightforward (which is not to say that climate change is straightforward, but let's keep it separate).
You also raised the subject of the homeless. I couldn't be more familiar with the plight of the homeless, having had them stay in my home on several occasions. Anybody who doubts the scale of the problem should visit Bristol city centre on Christmas Day. You wouldn't be able to accuse the dozens of people trying to get some precious sleep in a shop doorway on a quiet day of being beggars posing as homeless. But let's also leave that subject.
The drop in fertility rates to which you briefly allude should have been at the top of the news agenda for many years. So why hasn't it been? And what are the causes of this alarming drop? You touch on something of the most profound importance, and maybe it isn't entirely unconnected to our discussion.
You are quite right about data and the loss of privacy and that ship having sailed, as you accurately pinpoint, particularly since 9/11 and the 'War on Terror'. It is just interesting to note how, in the USA, the enormous Patriot Act was drafted so quickly and pushed through in the wake of 9/11. Nobody could have digested it all. Should we read anything into that? Anyway, let's not go there either.
What we don't yet have, however, is all our data on an implantable microchip. Cue predictable howls of derision from those who don't see that we are on the path towards this. Vaccine passports are a step along that path.
Yes, recently, cytokine storm has been highlighted as a product of COVID-19. I see no reason why it shouldn't be. However, the warnings are that this risk will be enormously magnified by the new experimental vaccines.
Now, because of your doubts about some climate change scientists, is that a reason to dismiss these scientists?
They could be wrong. I hope they're wrong. But, shouldn't they have a hearing instead of being censored? What if they are right? Why is the precautionry principle always thrown out of the window?
Don't opt out of the thread, Punj. I'm not interested in having an argument with anyone. I am only interested in having a discussion, and everyone (well, most people anyway) has a valuable angle to bring. The more the better (minus the bullies).
And no, we are not 'fucked'. We must not allow ourselves to think that. But we do have to recognise that we are ruled by sociopaths. And that is our fault. Once we see that, we don't have to be 'fucked' any more.
Quote:I'm working in the health department with disabled and/or elderly people. Their lives aren't sugar coated even without a deadly virus. So yes I'm very annoyed by egocentric views of people who think they lose some kind of freedom if they have to adapt a teeny bit of their routines to life under a deadly virus.First of all, I take my hat off to you for doing that kind of work rather than chasing money and a bogus form of status. I also pay tribute to you for asserting that having this discussion here is perfectly valid. However, I must ask, do you really think I am so inhuman as to care less about such vulnerable people than I do about my little bit of freedom? What makes you think that?
I won't get offended, because I know you can't have grasped what I am trying to say. The reason I continue here, despite all the sniping so unbecoming of this place, is precisely because I am extremely concerned about the future of the elderly and disabled, but also, increasingly, about the future of us all.
Before I attempt another explanation of my concerns, let me reiterate. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
Also, please forget about what you think is my opinion. This isn't about my opinion. I simply want to share the warnings being given by scientists and doctors – warnings that are being suppressed (a concern in and of itself).
I have never in my life wished harder for something to be wrong.
The warnings state that the new experimental vaccines will transform something that has perhaps been like a bad flu into something far, far worse.
One explanation describes how the new experimental vaccines will cause pathogenic priming. This means that when the vaccinated individual encounters the next coronavirus in the wild (and that could even be the common cold), the immune system will go berserk. It is a well known phenomenon called cytokine storm. The end result is something like sepsis, followed by organ failure – probably sudden cardiac arrest.
Because of your work, you might be interested to hear of very recent developments in care homes in the UK, where, of course, the vaccine roll-out is more advanced than anywhere else other than Israel (a lot of bad stories coming out of there, by the way). Two examples are in Exmouth and Sidmouth. Staff had worked very hard for many months to keep these places clear of COVID-19. In January, residents were vaccinated. Now they are suddenly dying in numbers. This could be an early example of what we might see much more of next winter.
The vaccines are not being blamed. Is it coincidence? If you die within 28 days of a so-called positive PCR 'test', no matter what the actual cause, your death is added to the COVID-19 statistics. However, if you die within 28 days of a new experimental vaccine, it can't be the vaccine!
Scientists have been trying to develop coronavirus vaccines since 2002 (with SARS, MERS, etc. causing concern). It turned out that it was very difficult to do. They would give the vaccines to animals (most notably, ferrets), and all would seem well at first. It was only later, when the animals encountered the wild form of the virus, that things went wrong. The animals kept dying, because of pathogenic priming and cytokine storm. So, attempts to develop coronavirus vaccines were abandoned, and strong cautions were issued regarding any future attempts to develop coronavirus vaccines.
Fast forward to now, and suddenly we are to accept that all these problems have recently, and very quickly, been overcome? Do we have the transparency to be able to assure ourselves of this? No. Can these pharmaceutical companies stretch time in order to test for long-term effects? What do you reckon?
The trials, such has they are, aren't even over yet!
And remember, the pharmaceutical companies have ensured that they are granted immunity from prosecution all around the world, even if you could demonstrate that you had been damaged, assuming you were still alive.
If the warnings currently being sounded are correct, then we would expect to see the real problems begin next autumn, when many will have been vaccinated and then they start encountering the season's viruses as they circulate (northern hemisphere).
As well as the terms pathogenic priming and cytokine storm, other names for the same processes include: immuno-priming, immune super-priming, antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE), antibody-induced enhancement and immune enhancement.
Four warning about this possibility (there are many more) are:
Professor Dolores Cahill
Dr Sucharit Bhakdi
Dr James Lyons-Weiler
Dr Michael Yeadon
As I've said before, you have a bounty of information at your fingertips. I've already given more than enough leads, as have Devotional and the conscience, for anybody to find out for themselves. Just know that YouTube, Facebook and others are doing their best to shut down these warnings, so you have to dig a little. If you still think Wikipedia and the fact-checkers are independent and without bias, I don't think I can help you.
And hey, if anybody does have a good look and can come back, not with tales of how these individuals have been smeared, but with convincing explanations of why they are wrong, I'm absolutely ready to hear it!
For me, by far the best outcome would be that, after the next two winters, say in summer 2023, none of what has been warned against has come about. I would very gladly read on here tons of ridicule at my expense. I would happily lie on the floor while you all kick me and tell me what an idiot I was to pay any heed to such nonsense, and I would thank you for it.
If you can't be bothered looking up the names listed above, or discovering all the others issuing dire warnings, here are a couple of links to the warnings of an individual who explains that the bodies of the vaccinated will be incubating increasingly dangerous forms of the virus. He would appear to be another laying his reputation on the line. This is very new. So far, I have given him less scrutiny than the others. Is he right? I hope not.
This is a Belgian pro-vaccine vaccine expert who has worked for GSK, Novartis, Gavi and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
So, not an 'anti-vaxxer' then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9PdZn_Yd5w&t=89s
By the way, anyone out there with the balls and decency of Devotional and the conscience, who is perhaps coming late to this thread. Don't be intimidated. Come and add your voice.
@ Punj Lizard
Tomorrow (Monday 15th March) at 16:30 (UK time), there will be a British Parliamentary
debate on the matter of vaccine passports in response to the e-petition that has
garnered nearly 300,000 signatures (100,000 are required to trigger a debate).
Let me try and respond to your invitation and make the case against vaccine passports.
It's difficult to speak about them in isolation from the new, experimental vaccines,
PCR 'tests', lockdowns, death certificates, etc., etc., especially as the very idea of
them coming in has already, by design perhaps, chivvied people into rolling up their
sleeves and offering themselves up…but I'll try.
I know you believe it is just a temporary thing, which enables live music to restart.
I understand why people don't see a problem, especially if they trust governments.
However, the French have a saying. It's something along these lines:
"The temporary becomes the permanent."
If I perhaps know you a little, Punj, I'd say you were a lover of freedom.
Can I jog your memory? Do you recall more than one attempt in recent history in the UK,
both by governments of the left (well, New Labour anyway) and the right, to introduce
ID cards? Why couldn't they push it through? Because people weren't having it!
These vaccine passports, I believe, will morph into ID cards. It is essentially what
they would be from the outset anyway.
History shows us time and time again that when governments award themselves emergency
powers, they rarely give them up easily. I rather doubt that vaccine passports will
be restricted just to international travel, gigs, restaurants and the like. I believe
they might be required if you want to go to work or even buy food. This, essentially,
would make them mandatory.
This, in turn, would effectively make taking the new, experimental vaccines compulsory.
Many people have very good reasons for not wanting to take them. I particularly wonder
what happens to people with a history of serious adverse reaction.
(And, yes, I can hear someone out there shouting, "Nobody cares!")
Do we also talk about privacy? Are we not bothered that these cards could carry a
wealth of personal data. I mean, you have considered that, right? Are you OK with that?
I also think not many people have factored in that you will be continually having
to fork out for tests to keep your passport valid. More money rolling in for someone…
By the way, if Tony Blair is really pushing something, doesn't that give you pause
for thought?
What happens when the stories start coming through that people are faking these
vaccine passports? Perhaps the reports will be true; perhaps not. It hardly matters.
Just wait and see. They will come. And then, what do you suppose will be the
proposed solution?
And will everyone on this forum be gagging for that too?
I fear this plan might have been long in the making.
I have great sympathy for Bent and the other guys. They've got to make a living.
If they start considering the ramifications of going with vaccine passports, it
puts them in a very difficult position. That, of course, would be the motivation
not to look closely.
I'm hanging onto the hope that Bent is going to come around. We all know that MP work
incredibly hard. It takes time to get to grips with this question – time he perhaps
hasn't had, because of his devotion to music-making (for which I am usually so
grateful).
I'm sorry. I can't resist quoting Sister Sledge:
"We're lost in music –
Caught in a trap."
I think he might just take another look. I really hope so.
Devotional said, "Sometimes what you fight is what you become." Maybe the left/right
pantomime is the best trick in the book. So, you look at Trump and the alt-right, and
you see lies, bigotry and hatred. Understandably, you want to run in the opposite
direction. But, do you apply the same scrutiny to that which you are embracing?
Left or right? It's like backing one horse when both are owned by the same stable.
It appears to me that virtually all the politicians of the left, right or centre, all
around the world, who have any chance of getting near power, are already bought and
paid for.
I'm going to leave you with this short video. It's a prediction about something like
what we're witnessing, made back in 2012 by Thomas Sheridan (not Tommy Sheridan). I don't
necessarily subscribe to everything he says. but it's well worth a look.
Anybody here care about freedom?
Absolutely with you. I love the classic prog, especially Yes, but I'm also partial to intelligent, well made hard rock, with that raw emotion.
While N.O.X. blew me away, it's sitting on the shelf because I don't want to overlisten to it. I'm hoping for more-meat-and-two-veg (with apologies to veggies!) like Child of the Future (perhaps the last time they delivered what we're talking about on record – and, by the way, where's that CD?!).
Perhaps you are correct and the authors of the Corman-Drosten Review have it wrong. The rebuttal you cite appears, on a superficial reading, quite persuasive. Really, though, you (I presume) and I (definitely) would struggle to be sure who is correct. This is why I say that I could be wrong in listening to scientists and doctors warning about aspects of this crisis we are passing through.
However, if the authors of this report are not sufficiently highly or specifically qualified, would you pay attention to the Nobel Prize-winning inventor of the PCR 'test' himself? (See post to come.)
Beyond the authors of this report, there are many, many more scientists and doctors trying to warn. Of course, they don't all say the same thing, because there is no such thing as 'the science'. Science is never 'settled'. In case you worry that they are not sufficiently highly or specifically qualified, be assured that there are molecular biologists among them.
As a layman, trying to weigh up what different groups of scientists and doctors are telling me, I have on the one hand the 'trusted' experts (the only ones most people get to hear from), who have driven through the policies on lockdowns that have caused untold damage, and who, it appears, might have serious conflicts of interest, while on the other hand I have the other experts (who you don't see on your TV or read about in your papers), who are being censored, banned, smeared, fired and who are losing their careers. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose. They are absolutely passionate about many things, but, perhaps most of all, about the possible disastrous long-term consequences of these new, experimental vaccines. (Please note: not vaccines in general. Please also note: long-term consequencees as opposed to immediate side-effects.)
Anybody not rushing out to get one of these experimental vaccines (the trials aren't finished yet) – instead preferring to ascertain exactly what they are signing up for – would do well to research pathogenic priming and cytokine storm.
If the warnings are correct, next winter could make what we have seen so far look like a tea party. This will be because of the experimental vaccines (but it will be blamed on new variants or viruses).
If you decide to get the jabs (now and every year for ever more), good luck to you. Just be sure you are giving your informed consent.
@Punj Lizard
Having never been an 'anti-vaxxer', I am not familiar with Arvay!
Thanks again for being open to an intelligent, level-headed exploration of what flows
from Bent's intentions. I really appreciate it. I'm guessing a few quiet – perhaps
intimidated – lurkers might do too
I note you say you are not a fan of Big Pharma. I'm sure you have a good reason for that
stance. With my parents' backgrounds in dentistry and pharmacology, we pretty much
accepted the whole world of allopathic nedicine, trusting that all due care and
diligence was exercised. It was only after pharmaceutical drugs wreaked devastation in
the family, not once but twice, that we took a deep dive into, for example, how drugs are
researched, trialled and brought to market, 'peer review' and medical journals. What we
found absolutely shocked us. Perhaps you know the sort of thing?
You touch on the question of treatments and cures for COVID-19. Knowing what you know,
would you expect the pharmaceutical industry to allow cheap, out-of-patent, generic drugs
(with a long history of being safe) to be used on COVID-19 patients, when enormous sums
of money could be made with some other approach?
Doubtless you are aware of the questions being raised in the UK over the handing out of
contracts? Do you not wonder whether this might just be the tip of the iceberg?
Given your mistrust (if I am correct in using that term) of Big Pharma, if you
found that all the 'trusted' experts driving forward policy on the devastating lockdowns,
the roll-out of vaccines, etc., had deep links with the pharmaceutical industry,
wouldn't that make you just a tiny bit sceptical?
@Punj Lizard:
So glad you are being reasonable. What is the Arvay book? Did you think I'd made reference to it?
Looks like I've got to get into the Stone Roses then! Ian Brown has pulled out of a festival because he will not be part of anything where vaccine passports are a condition of entry.
Now that is admirable.
Many thanks, as ever, to Bernie, and also to Anders and every other unselfish soul who helps bring these treats our way.
"One thing I can say with complete certainty is that it is a bad idea to trust the majority of experts in any domain in which both complexity and large amounts of money are involved."
Scott Adams
I totally understand people only want to see posts here about their favourite band. Had I not read what Bent said, I would not have posted. The fact that Bent did say it makes the discussion on-topic, as far as I am concerned.
Incidentally, I posted quite regularly (almost always in praise of this great band) from when I joined the forum until a year ago, when I stopped for reasons that I needn't go into. I continued to read and appreciate contributions. I hope the gap doesn't mean I shouldn't have posted again.
Before posting, i did expect the hostility, but it still saddens me.
By the way, anybody readng the William Cooper quote that begins, "The arrogant man.." who thinks it means I am having a go at them or at someone here for being arrogant, please read it again, because that was not the intention. I think there is great wisdom in this quote. The point is to encourage an open mind, and a scepticism where experts are concerned. If you have humility, you will see that it speaks to all of us.
@Punj Lizard: Quite right.
For the record, I am not a fan of Trump or the alt-right – far from it.
Also for the record, I have never been an anti-vaxxer. However, I have come across good reason to fear the possible long-term consequences of taking these vaccines, which are so much more different from all that has gone before than people seem to realise. Should I just ignore that, when it comes from so many highly qualified doctors and scientists who have nothing to gain and everything to lose?
Am I whining about my opinion? Well, not really, because I'm not even sure what I think. I am still trying to figure out what is going on.
I am wondering why there have been no flu deaths this year.
I am wondering why the total number of all-cause deaths is not significantly higher than in previous years.
I am wondering why the average age of 'COVID-19" deaths in my country is higher than the average life expectancy.
I am wondering why autopsies have been banned.
I am wondering why the requirement has been reduced to just one doctor, who has not necessarily even seen the patient but who can put COVID-19 on the death certificate – "with COVID-19" adds to the grim total of supposed COVID-19 deaths. (See the case of Daily Mail writer Bel Mooney's father, and all the people who wrote in saying 'me too'.)
I am wondering why such faith has been put in a test, when the inventor of the test himself said it should never be used for diagnosis, since, with a sufficient number of amplifications, you can find anything in anybody.
I am wondering why economies around the world have been trashed.
I simply ask people to open their eyes and at least consider that the official narrative might be suspect in a number of ways.
As far as vaccine oassports go, surely it isn't difficult to see where that leads?
"The arrogant man does not need to see. He already sees almost everything, and what he thinks he has yet to learn he believes the experts will one day show him. And who are these experts? They’re not really doctors of the soul, ladies and gentlemen. They do not have the man’s interest at heart. They are in fact his worst enemies; his most cunning manipulators who lead him to do their bidding like any slave master since Egypt."
William Cooper
