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I am hijacking @Norman_Gold's reply to my post on the MP and Rush thread. Let's see if anyone finds this interesting…
Quote:@bionaut, Cape Cod – that's something! My daughter went there once during her stay in Boston.I am 55 years old, born and raised in Germany. Due to my profession as a sales engineer for an industrial company, I lived nearly half of my adult life in other countries, mostly out of main cities, where I helped to build up local branches. Since the fall of the iron curtain, I'm an avid observer on the effects of globalization and multilateralism, its impacts for the various social classes and, of course, the political arrangement. By 1992 and eventually with the partly un- and antidemocratic implementation of the Maastricht Treaty then, I was confident that this all won't work out the way the elites would like to have it.
Just before Super Tuesday: Who is your favourite candidate so far for the 3rd. of November?
Bernie. Go…
bionaut, thanks for opening this thread. I hope that we get posts here from various members, covering the whole spectrum.
As I wrote a lot so far, please tell me: What are your views / preferences / beliefs? Why Bernie? What is your opinion on Trump and his agenda?
Hans Boller:
Quote:Wow Norman, I'm impressed!Thanks
Referencing to your post in the other thread: You obviously understood parts of my post totally wrong, by 180 degrees. As your post comes by partly mazy and as an emotional rant, it would help if you read my post again slowly, carefully.supernaut:
Quote:I don't get how Norman's ramblings are not patronizing or snobbish but I'd be happy to have this board chilled. There's enough of these holier than thou and I have facts to crush your petty opinions "discussions" all over the webs and so far this phorum has been quite uniquely devoid of those. So that's it for me.I understand that it's cozy to stay in your safe space, consuming the synchronized coverage of the mainstream media, surrounded by like-minded people. Unity instead of diversity, confirmation instead of dissent.
You have "facts to crush your petty opinions"? Bring them! Because I don't believe you. And don't take your "it's too stupid for me"-attitude as an alibi to hold back.
If every unbeliever in mainstream media and mainstream political institutions and organisations spits his bile into this thread we might soon have an ocean of gob…
Not because the evil centralized press/government/holding co. pisses of everybody (sometimes it does…), but because so many people get hysterized by their small-minded opinion bubbles and believe their smartphone-generated trash information every word while at the same time accusing well-researched and well-written "official" news of lying.
I don't believe everything published in the "mainstream", but still I was quite happy to have a corner here to discuss and trade opinions free from the hysterized conspiracy discussions that seem to overflow everwhere. Please keep it like that – there's too many half-wits out there, so let's keep them out (or ban them inside this thread).
Awaiting your anger-fueled replies
I propose that we all agree that this thread is not a safe space. That said, I do not intend to bring anger to the conversation. We all need to figure out how to talk to people who hold ideas we cannot understand. So, my views, preferences, beliefs in no particular order…
I live in what seems to be the most fucked up country on the planet. Dave Wyndorf, a great American philosopher, sums it well…
"I fed my dog the American dream
He rolled over and he started to scream
He said, I dig the taste of salt,
But it won't keep me alive"
There is a lot to unpack in that statement, but suffice it to say that America is a place where the dogs are smarter than the people. That, in a nutshell, is how Donald Trump got elected.
I first became aware of Trump in the 1970's when I was a teenager. I lived near NYC, and this guy was in the local news all the time. It was clear to me that the guy was a self-centered asshole of the first order, and I have never understood the fascination. Interesting anecdote: Keith Richards once had to be restrained from knifing The Donald (look it up).
I will give Trump one thing. He is probably the greatest con man of all time. I say this grudgingly, as Titanic Thompson really deserves the title. Titanic never conned a country into electing him president, though. That's a game changer.
Trump captures the worst qualities of America and humanity in general. All this talk of Ayn Rand is nonsense when you try to apply it to Trump. Trump is an animal. He does not think like a human. He does not care about you, or me, or anybody else. He only has eyes for the mirror. This is not what Ayn Rand espoused. I think this article discusses this concept well enough…
As far as the socialism discussion goes, let's not lose sight of the truth. America is a socialist country right now and has been for some time. We just practice socialism in our own way. Our government gives money to corporations too fucked up to stay in business without help on a regular basis. That's how American socialism works. It is selective, just like racism. It starts with the 14th Amendment, and we keep the party going with the Citizens United decision. Corporations have the rights of an individual, and campaign contributions are free speech. Ha ha ha!
So, here we have Bernie Sanders running for president. He is not a prefect person, but he is authentic. He's an actual bomb thrower. He's not conning anybody. If he would just start playing MC5 as his walk-on music at campaign events… but I digress. America needs to stop itself. We are a runaway train. No other candidate is up to the task.
Quote:America is a socialist country right now and has been for some time. We just practice socialism in our own way. Our government gives money to corporations too fucked up to stay in business without help on a regular basis. That's how American socialism works. It is selective, just like racism. It starts with the 14th Amendment, and we keep the party going with the Citizens United decision.I see your point, and I'm partly with you. But that's not a kind of socialism, it's corporatism with Hillary Clinton as its most popular representative back in 2016. Implemented at least a decade earlier, it culminated in the Troubled Asset Relief Program in 2008. By 100% this would have turned out differently under Trump.
But in your view, he "captures the worst qualities of America and humanity in general", he is an "animal", "does not think like a human", "the greatest con man of all time"; America "the most fucked up country on the planet" – really? To answer on such absolute negativity is impossible. To what do you compare? So any other country on the planet would suit your needs better than America? How do you explain that America has always been – and still is – the most preferred destination for emigrants worldwide? On the opposite: Why have people always desperately tried to leave socialistic governed countries?
I know people with your views here in Germany. They criticize capitalism, the democratic system, the society, money and wealth as such, the concept of nation states… Ironically, most of them are the ones to benefit most from the circumstances they bash. Our word for this attitude: Geistige Wohlstandsverwahrlosung. Mental neglect due to wealth.
What they don't bring up – and what I would like to hear from you as well – are better alternatives. Because if they throw in ideas, their relic proposals proved to have failed numerous times, everywhere they have been applied. In the west, left-wing politicians and intellectuals were always enthusiastic for countries trying socialism; think of Venezuela as a recent example. Then as soon as the experiment fails, suddenly they state that only the implementation has been done wrong. That leads to the tautology: Only a successful socialism is a correct socialism – but such a socialism doesn't exist until now.
So the trick is to avoid a comparison of the real existing capitalism with the historic events of socialism, but with the utopia of an equitable, anticapitalistic society. That's equally fair as if you don't compare your marriage with the ones of other couples, but with romantic portrayals in dime novels. Compared to the idealized phantasies of a perfect world, even a successful system as capitalism turns out bad, though in the last decades it liberated hundreds of million people, especially in Asia, out of bitter poverty.
Quote:They criticize capitalism, the democratic system, the society, money and wealth as such, the concept of nation states… Ironically, most of them are the ones to benefit most from the circumstances they bash. Our word for this attitude: Geistige Wohlstandsverwahrlosung. Mental neglect due to wealth.I must admit there is some US bashing by political idiots here in Germany who rather prefer to lick Putin's ass. But there is also a lot of criticism of US Government and a lack of understanding of more special aspects of the US American way of life that does not necessarily reject democracy or capitalism as a whole. Nevertheless our understanding of democracy is often slightly different and we criticise aspects in the US that to us seem undemocratic. On the other hand many of our social achievements (social security, unemployment and health insurance, tax system) appear quite socialist to many Americans and they are very supprised when they learn that not a communist government but the Kaiser's right hand and Reichskanzler Bismarck introduced them.
Criticism of the excesses of capitalism has been a part of our Western European culture for centuries – as well as the view that capitalism has developped over the centuries and will change again – without disappearing totally, but the way it is these days is not set in stone forever. For me and several of my friends who have been to the US a permanent life there is unimaginable. At the same time these people mostly stress the very open and kind nature of most of the people they met – apart from the natural beauty of the counry, whis is out of question. So the critical view of US and US lifestyle here is quite differentiated and not always as plump and aggresively anti-American as you mentioned.
The fact that America is still a favourite goal for the poor and uneducated (and scientists and artists who rather enjoy the radical, if unsocial freedom of the US)does not mean the US of A is the best, most democratic and most enjoyable place on the world to live in – as an American you may have that feeling – good for you, but I certainly don't think so. Despite its weeknesses and shortcomings Europe, that is the EU, is still the place to be for me and will hopefully remain so. Especially if you count the number of Motorpsycho Concerts over the years in Norway, Holland, Germany or Italy compared to those in the US
Hi Norman, Sorry to go dark for a bit. I have a busy life!
Absolute negativity? That's funny. You don't get America.
In any case, the truly interesting part of this discussion is the question of better alternatives. I am not the guy to do the heavy lifting here, but I will tell you that one person who has the right of things is Noam Chomsky. If you are familiar with his thinking, then you know what I am talking about.
Chomsky's basic position on the better alternative is the, "lesser of two evils," solution. Normally, I would not want to hear about that kind of thinking, but in his case, I get it. He thinks Bernie would be the least evil. Why? Let us first understand that we are talking about a metric other than money.
You see, the flaw in so many arguments is the attempt to measure well-being with financial metrics. To me, that is nonsense. Maybe to you, it's not. Let me ask a question. What does the word 'soul' mean to you?
I am not entirely trusting of Chomsky. He is very clever, and very persuasive, and a number of things he says make a lot of sense. However, I wonder whether he himself is, in a way, an example of what he ascribes to other individuals and institutions when he accuses them of occupying a position which controls opposition and essentially says "this far and no further".
Do I think we should be looking further to the left than Chomsky? Absolutely not. That, I believe, really is dangerous territory. I question, anyway, the whole left/right paradigm. The kind of limitation I am coming to suspect that Chomsky represents (and, bear with me, because this is thinking-in-progress on my part) is one that keeps us in what I'll call the mainstream mindset (although I'm not very satisfied by that term).
Have a look at how he addresses – or fails to address – the issue of the (privately-owned) Federal Reserve and the debt-based money system. (As for 9/11 (yup, I brought it up!), he won't go near it.)
There are plenty coming from the right as well as the left who can see there is something very wrong. I would suggest that, for a section on the left, Chomsky is doing a similar deceptive disservice to that Trump is doing to a section on the right.
But I could be wrong on both counts.
Hello again to all of you!
Quote:Chomsky's basic position on the better alternative is the, "lesser of two evils,"Sorry, but it's just common thinking for any grown-up to realize that the one perfect solution, if at all, only rarely exists. That's my point when I name the advocates of socialistic ideas as infantile. Their dreaming of a perfect, harmonized, synchronized society is not only totally naive, but it has been proven numerous times that the attempts to install paradise on earth leads into hell: Poverty, doom, injustice, corruption, misfortune, early mortality, mass unemployment (ok, that won't impress people on the hard-left as they hate to work anyway), social riot, up to civil war and terror. But in the forefront of that, and because the human being urges instinctively towards liberty, autonomy and self-determination, socialism can only be established in an authoritarian, dictatorial regime. How many more tragic examples are necessary to convince even the dumbest?
Furthermore, since Chomsky's disgraceful denegation of the Khmer Rouge terror, he is on the same low level as the morons who deny the Holocaust or the Gulag. Ugly.
Quote:What does the word 'soul' mean to you?A conception, an imagination, something indefinable – all of which could be used to lead the discussion towards a cloudy, esoteric territory. I had these talks (simplified: Reality vs. Spirituality) with people who either took too many drugs in their life or never overcame their narcissistic, egocentric childish behavior. No, we will have to keep it on solid ground to evaluate the pros and cons of different ideas.
Quote:You see, the flaw in so many arguments is the attempt to measure well-being with financial metrics.Totally wrong. There's absolutely no "flaw" in that. Well-being – or being well – primarily depends on wealth, which first builds up and stabilizes the nation, communities, the individual. As soon as basic needs like security and infrastructure are covered, and with more wealth available, a social state can be implemented for the ones in need to have a life in dignity. Now here in Europe, these institutions become more and more sponsors for individuals and groups that would not need support, but are clever enough to utilize the system for themselves in an anti-social way. That's a deeply egoistic behavior that needs to be fought against. I hope that you agree on that.
1) Free competition in a capitalistic economic environment plus 2) a developed, extensive democracy plus 3) an independent constitutional state – that's the successful combination to lead a society into peace, wealth, happiness. You don't believe it? Then go to meet people in poor countries. Ask them what they whish for a better life. And please don't be as arrogant as some of the rich, fat western intellectuals to tell them that they should kindly be happy to be poor.
Hi everybody!
@bionaut: I take it you are American? Could you define the term "socialist", please? I've had conversations like these with Americans before and there seems to be quite a big difference between the ways people in the US and in Europe use it.
@Norman_Gold: Where's the "It has been proven…" from your last post gone? I was gonna refer to that! Nevermind…
Quote:1) Free competition in a capitalistic economic environment plus 2) a developed, extensive democracy plus 3) an independent constitutional state – that's the successful combination to lead a society into peace, wealth, happiness.You can put it that way if you like but I think you have to ask the question: at what cost? Or better: whose costs? All of the big industrialized European countries have exploited other countries during the age of imperialism in order to provide ressources for their growing industries. They have taken natural ressources and committed genocides. After the abolishment of colonialism, the exploitation has continued (and still is!) through means of the free market. One of many examples: In the EU too much milk is produced for its inhabitants to consume. So the surplus is turned into milk powder which is then shipped to some poor African state and sold there cheaply. As a consequence, small farmers in that state who made a living on selling milk from their cows are driven out of business because they can't compete with the cheap substitute product from overseas.
That's a context we can't ignore anymore. Maybe it used to be easier to look the other way when people weren't online 24/7, but today? In the age of globalization and digital communication? I strongly believe that especially we in the Western industrialized countries have to accept and admit that our wealth and progress were erected on the back of others who we've exploited and, again, keep exploiting. I see very little reason why capitalism should be the preferable choice, at least in such an unregulated way as it has always been.
Idealistically, capitalism is dead. It doesn't live up to its (theoretic) promises, or if it does, only few people benefit. Let's face it, constant growth is an illusion.
And concerning your last point: Yes, if you go to someone who lacks the basic things in life, that someone would be happy to have more money. But apart from the basics, I argue that people would only measure their well-being or luck with money because they think they need a stupid € 500,-phone or stupid €300,- sneakers or a TV as big as their living room wall. In some small areas around the globe there are still some indiginous tribes who live the way they've lived for centuries, without electricity or money. In our eyes, they're poor, yet the level of contentment is high among those people.
@suntripper: You sound like someone with whom I could enjoy having a few beers. I look at my initial comments about Chomsky and realize I was too vague. I was simply working on an answer to Norman's question, "Why Bernie?" I should have limited my thoughts about Chomsky more clearly in answer to that question. Chomsky has been around a long time and said a lot of things. I don't know all of it, and I probably wouldn't support all of it if I did. That said, I was thinking of a recent interview in which Chomsky's articulation of why Bernie would be the least evil choice for the next president of the United States made good sense to me. I should have been more clear. I cannot say I agree with everything you are suggesting, but I appreciate your manner and expect we could come to a common understanding in a friendly conversation.
@Norman_Gold: "infantile", "totally naive", "narcissistic, egocentric childish"… To answer on such absolute negativity is impossible
When you speak about people who are clever enough to utilize the system for themselves in an anti-social way, I agree that this is a deeply egoistic behavior that should be fought against. Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that you do not count people of excessive wealth in this class. Let's face it, nobody ever 'earned' a billion dollars.
In response to this:
Quote:1) Free competition in a capitalistic economic environment plus 2) a developed, extensive democracy plus 3) an independent constitutional state – that's the successful combination to lead a society into peace, wealth, happiness. You don't believe it?I do believe it is possible. I do not believe any of those three conditions you state exist in America today.
At the end of the day, I think your 'logic' is self-serving and disconnected, and yes, we will have to talk about spiritual matters if this conversation is going to go anywhere interesting. That said, I am intrigued with your use of the phrase, "the human being." That articulation is rarely heard in America. I use it all the time. Let's forget Chomsky and talk about Steiner.
@Great King Rat: Yes, I am American. I would have to Google the word 'socialism' for a definition. I'm not gonna lie. I'll take a swing though, socialism is when the state takes your money and gives it to someone else. I think you make a great point about the difference in perception between Europeans and Americans. That's why I decided to get this debate going. I am so curious to learn. I appreciate your comments in response to Norman_Gold, and I think you should join @suntripper and myself for some beers.
@bionaut: Sure, give me a shout when you`ll make it to Europe, I'm always up for a beer!
That use of the term socialism, which you describe there, has caused me some confusion in the past. To me (and most other Germans, I guess), socialism is a term that first and foremost describes the kind of authoritarian system you could find in the Sowjet Union, former East Germany, China, North Korea and others. So, I would never go as far as you calling the USA a socialist country. As Johnny_Heartfield has pointed out, Germany's social security system has come a long way and is relatively extensive. But in my understanding, that still doesn't make us a socialist country. Our economic system is usually referred to as "Soziale Marktwirtschaft", a social market economy which differs from a free market economy in that it allows the state to set the framework for the economy and intervene to prevent deformations while the latter denies the state that right and lets the market manage everything through its mechanisms. But despite that, our economic system is clearly capitalist – with all its beneficial and detrimental effects.
And although I do think that capitalism as it is causes more damage than it does good, I wouldn't wanna live (or have lived) in one of the communist countries mentioned above. I'm with Norman on this one, historically, socialism as a system for a society has too often proved itself illegitimate. But that doesn't mean we should embrace capitalism blindly as the only alternative.
In my view, the state should intervene in the market a great deal more than it does here in Germany. I think we need A LOT more regulation in many fields. And I strongly reject the reflex from the right which claims that every ban or even regulation is an unacceptable intervention in the people's freedom.
@ Norman_Gold & everyone citing this:
1) Free competition in a capitalistic economic environment plus 2) a developed, extensive democracy plus 3) an independent constitutional state – that's the successful combination to lead a society into peace, wealth, happiness.
Seems plausible, but it doesn't work this way any more.
What is missing is a basic social standard guaranteed – without that and with all the disruptive effects the digital media has on people's minds even a developed democracy with independent constitutional elements can be overthrown or at least damaged. Trump is proving this right now.
The problem is that given the extreme and increasing gap between a few extremely rich and a great number of poverished people (or people afraid to lose their social standing) – add decreasing education due to lack of finance and effects of digital media – there will always be a large number of people ready to be led astray by unscrupulous "leaders" who claim to be "on their side". Take Trump – a priviledged guy from the beginning – or Johnson, an upper class descendent whose foolish mannerisms make him appear "common guy".
Democratic institutions and constitutions are only as strong as the people who accept them. Take Poland, take Hungary, take the first stirrings of fascism in England and the USA.
As for capitalism and "free enterprise": without regulations it will distroy itself. The disruptive effects of unrestricted, neo-liberal economy eat up everything: education, social standards, culture, personal sanity and the already heavily damaged ecosystems.
I'm not proposing any kind of totalitarian socialism or ecological dictatorship, but a reckoning of social and ecological effects through a regulative system. This may be the only chance to keep capitalism working – a restrained force within, not a destroyer, a killer on the loose.
As for Chomsky: I share your mistrust of this guy. Like so many of the radical left he tends to ignore the crimes of his totalitarian brothers in faith, be it in Cambodia, China or the former Soviet Union.
@Great King Rat: I hope to make it to Europe. I have not been on an airplane since 1999. I heard a voice. It said never get on a plane again. Two things are pushing me to take the chance. One, my wife wants the family to see Europe, and two, Motorpsycho! So, if I go, the dates WILL align with a tour
I love your message about socialism. There is so much for me to learn. Now it is becoming more clear how different America really is.
Americans have no fucken idea what socialism is. Some of us do, of course, but they are learned folk with some legitimate experience (I do not count myself in this group). Americans are unbelievably ignorant.
Let me try and restate an American's understanding of socialism. Socialism is a system that robs billionaires of their gains, stealing money from the fossil fuel and defense industries in particular, and gives it to undeserving lazy people. It is helpful to understand that the American 'government' is making this work by demonizing the undeserving and obfuscating the truth, brainwashing hard-working Americans into thinking the government cares about them.
This is how America is working under Trump. The Republicans create a tax cut for the wealthy. They increase defense spending. They wait a few months and begin to talk about the deficit again. Then, they try to cut social programs. The thing is, you cannot blame it all on the Republicans, because the Democrats really aren't any better. Virtually all of our politicians have been purchased by extreme wealth, and they work to satisfy their masters. This is not democracy. This is unfettered capitalism ridden with corruption, and it will get worse.
@Johnny_Heartfield: I am in harmony with your thinking, and I believe I have addressed much of what you are talking about in my rant above. You are also invited to join us for beers.
Let me just say that the contours of this debate are becoming more clear to me, and I feel enlivened.
@Norman_Gold: Money is a tiny God for tiny minds (thanks to Stefan K).
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