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@bionaut: Sure, give me a shout when you`ll make it to Europe, I'm always up for a beer!
That use of the term socialism, which you describe there, has caused me some confusion in the past. To me (and most other Germans, I guess), socialism is a term that first and foremost describes the kind of authoritarian system you could find in the Sowjet Union, former East Germany, China, North Korea and others. So, I would never go as far as you calling the USA a socialist country. As Johnny_Heartfield has pointed out, Germany's social security system has come a long way and is relatively extensive. But in my understanding, that still doesn't make us a socialist country. Our economic system is usually referred to as "Soziale Marktwirtschaft", a social market economy which differs from a free market economy in that it allows the state to set the framework for the economy and intervene to prevent deformations while the latter denies the state that right and lets the market manage everything through its mechanisms. But despite that, our economic system is clearly capitalist – with all its beneficial and detrimental effects.
And although I do think that capitalism as it is causes more damage than it does good, I wouldn't wanna live (or have lived) in one of the communist countries mentioned above. I'm with Norman on this one, historically, socialism as a system for a society has too often proved itself illegitimate. But that doesn't mean we should embrace capitalism blindly as the only alternative.
In my view, the state should intervene in the market a great deal more than it does here in Germany. I think we need A LOT more regulation in many fields. And I strongly reject the reflex from the right which claims that every ban or even regulation is an unacceptable intervention in the people's freedom.
Hi everybody!
@bionaut: I take it you are American? Could you define the term "socialist", please? I've had conversations like these with Americans before and there seems to be quite a big difference between the ways people in the US and in Europe use it.
@Norman_Gold: Where's the "It has been proven…" from your last post gone? I was gonna refer to that! Nevermind…
Quote:1) Free competition in a capitalistic economic environment plus 2) a developed, extensive democracy plus 3) an independent constitutional state – that's the successful combination to lead a society into peace, wealth, happiness.You can put it that way if you like but I think you have to ask the question: at what cost? Or better: whose costs? All of the big industrialized European countries have exploited other countries during the age of imperialism in order to provide ressources for their growing industries. They have taken natural ressources and committed genocides. After the abolishment of colonialism, the exploitation has continued (and still is!) through means of the free market. One of many examples: In the EU too much milk is produced for its inhabitants to consume. So the surplus is turned into milk powder which is then shipped to some poor African state and sold there cheaply. As a consequence, small farmers in that state who made a living on selling milk from their cows are driven out of business because they can't compete with the cheap substitute product from overseas.
That's a context we can't ignore anymore. Maybe it used to be easier to look the other way when people weren't online 24/7, but today? In the age of globalization and digital communication? I strongly believe that especially we in the Western industrialized countries have to accept and admit that our wealth and progress were erected on the back of others who we've exploited and, again, keep exploiting. I see very little reason why capitalism should be the preferable choice, at least in such an unregulated way as it has always been.
Idealistically, capitalism is dead. It doesn't live up to its (theoretic) promises, or if it does, only few people benefit. Let's face it, constant growth is an illusion.
And concerning your last point: Yes, if you go to someone who lacks the basic things in life, that someone would be happy to have more money. But apart from the basics, I argue that people would only measure their well-being or luck with money because they think they need a stupid € 500,-phone or stupid €300,- sneakers or a TV as big as their living room wall. In some small areas around the globe there are still some indiginous tribes who live the way they've lived for centuries, without electricity or money. In our eyes, they're poor, yet the level of contentment is high among those people.
@Be: Never been to Wehrschloss, and 95 was just before I got to know the band… 10/12 Schlachthof shows is quite impressive! And although this year seems to have been great again (I missed it too), you at least attended last year's already legendary 10-songs-in-150-minutes-gig! That one's definitely among my top 5 MP shows.
After having spent two hours or so on this forum tonight (again), a Shakespeare quote just crossed my mind: I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it!
Comment by my wife (a non-believer): "You not only could waste your time, you DO waste your time there!" Oh, well… she isn't perfect but I love her very much.
Also: it's not a waste! :MPD:
Alhough the thread was opened only a year ago, I had already forgotten about it. Thanks for refrehing it!
There are so many things worth commenting… Amazing how many unique performances there are! Among the things that strike me is the fact that they played "Giftland" only in four years! Since it's quite old and a massive build-up piece that fits their live-style, I would have expected it to have appeared more often. All the more lucky I count myself to have witnessed it in 2002. They opened(!) the Hamburg show with it back then.
Weird that Dr. Hoffmann’s Bicycle was only played in 97 and 98 but not after the release on Barracuda in 99. And isn't the song actually much older?
I wish I'd seen them covering Queen's Sheer heart attack… It says in the list "played in 2006" – does that mean they actually played it more than once?
@otherdemon: Thanks!
Great effort, BronYAur! That's the nerdy stuff we love around here.
I hardly remember that dry spell from 2003 to 2005 with only 12 shows, especially 2005 ("Year 0") must have been a terrible year for many here. And only 9 shows in 2007 after they had been "back to normal" in 2006? What was wrong there?
I would have thought they've played Bremen more often than just 13 times. At least, all but one of those shows were in magic Schlachthof (I reckon I saw half of those), does anyone remember where in Bremen they played that one other show?
Thanks, fillmore, for the detailed and absorbing report! It seems indeed to have been a lot different from at least Hamburg, which I saw.
I have to say, though, when I look at the two, I'm quite happy with the selection we got in Hamburg. But I would have loved to hear Year Zero and Alchemyst.
Wow, 8 different songs compared to Hamburg! Although we're used to changing setlists, this is quite remarkable. More than half of the setlist replaced, you don't get that very often, not even with MP. Plus the ones played in the record store the day after, that makes quite a range of songs in three shows. Is anyone gonna update the songs played-list?
@Tomcat: Could have been "Kaiser", it definetly was an "ai"/"ei" sound.
